3D InCites Member Spotlight: Why the Front End Needs the Back End To Win in AI

We recorded live at IMAPS with Siemens, ACM Research, Shellback Semiconductor, DECA, Nordson Electronic Solutions, and VIEW Micro Metrology to explore how AI demand, chiplets, and panels are reshaping advanced packaging. We dig into 3D BLOX, thermal and test roadblocks, green chemistries, metrology at scale, and why the back end now leads innovation. Listen to learn about:

• The Siemens–ASE collaboration on 3D BLOX models and VIPACK workflows
• Interoperable YAML-based packaging definitions moving toward IEEE standard
• 3D stacking to cut picojoules per bit amid thermal and test limits
• Panel-level packaging economics, sizes, and lack of standards
• ACM Research updates in copper plating, bevel clean, frame clean, and compound deplating
• Batch spray versus single wafer trade-offs at Shellback Semiconductor
• HydrOzone green strip replacing legacy NMP in select flows
•The  DECA–SST deal for NVM chiplet package and SoC disaggregation
• Nordson Electronic Solutions' panel strategy, IntelliJet 1.1, Vantage platform, and warpage control
• VIEW Micro Metrology's high-throughput telecentric metrology across wafers and large panels

Learn more at imaps.org

Chapters

• 0:00 Live From IMAPS And Retiring Host
• 1:19 Siemens–ASE 3D BLOX Collaboration
• 9:19 3D Stacking: Power, Thermals, Test
• 12:22 ACM Research Joins: Front End Meets Packaging
• 17:35 Panel Level Packaging Economics And Sizes
• 22:25 ACM Tools: Plating, Deplating, Tracks
• 24:55 Shellback On Batch Vs Single Wafer
• 31:40 Green Chemistries: HydrOzone Returns
• 36:30 DECA On Chiplets And Investment Reality
• 41:00 SST Partnership: Disaggregating NVM
• 47:00 Nordson’s Panel Strategy And Warpage
• 53:30 Metrology At Scale: VIEW’s Entry
• 1:04:50 Closing And Next Week’s Coverage

Transcript

SPEAKER_11: 0:00

This episode of the 3D Insights Podcast is sponsored by IMAPs, the premier global association for microelectronics advanced packaging enthusiasts. A membership in IMAPs helps your company grow its advanced packaging workforce through professional education and networking, advances your brand, and supports building relationships. IMAPS helps you learn, connect, and collaborate. Learn more at imaps.org. Hi there. I'm Francoise von Traffe, and this is the 3D Insights Podcast. Hi everyone. This week we are recording live from San Diego where I am attending the IMAPS International Symposium. Now, I realized last week this is my 20th year at the event. In fact, it was the first event I ever went to in the advanced packaging industry. And I actually just announced my retirement from 3D Insights at the end of the year. So in this episode, I'll be speaking with some of our 3D Insights community members to get their perspectives of where advanced packaging is going and their role in it. And also what's up with their companies. So my first guest has been here many times before. I'm speaking with Keith Felton of Siemens Digital Industries Software. Welcome back, Keith.

SPEAKER_09: 1:24

Thank you very much, François. It's great to be here. Great to see you again. Probably for the last time, actually.

SPEAKER_11: 1:30

Yeah, we'll see. You'll see me. Hopefully. That's okay.

SPEAKER_09: 1:35

As long as you're still the queen of 3D, just for the different crowns.

SPEAKER_11: 1:37

I'll always be the queen of 3D. You can't take that away from me.

SPEAKER_09: 1:41

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_11: 1:42

So you guys have some big news that you shared, and it has to do with another one of our members, ASE. You're collaborating on one of your products, Innovator 3D IC, and it's driving 3D blocks workflows for ASE's VIPAC platform. That is a lot of acronyms. That's one of my favorite topics.

SPEAKER_09: 2:02

But we are acronym rich in this industry.

SPEAKER_11: 2:05

So if you can maybe unscramble that Scrabble for us.

SPEAKER_09: 2:10

So ASE have a um a platform of advanced integration technologies, and they've branded it VIPAC. Very similar to the way TSMC have 3D fabric.

SPEAKER_11: 2:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 2:21

And they came to us and said, you know, we're trying to drive adoption and proliferation of this technology. And we believe the way to do it is to provide our customers with 3D blocks syntax models of our technology. Okay, so 3D blocks is a language definition format that lets you describe how to put together an advanced semiconductor package.

SPEAKER_11: 2:46

So 3D blocks spelled 3D BLOX is a workflow. Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 2:59

So it's like a 3D language model that you can use to give to someone else and they can consume it electronically, digitally.

SPEAKER_11: 3:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 3:09

Okay. It's written in YAML format if you know what YAML is. It's a human readable language format.

SPEAKER_11: 3:16

You know, EDA has always baffled me with all of your I mean, you guys have your own language.

SPEAKER_09: 3:21

Well I don't think YAML was invented by EDA, but it's Y A M L. And obviously ML is something like markup language. Don't ask me what the rest of the YA means. But young adults? No possibly. But it was created by TSMC.

SPEAKER_11: 3:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 3:38

So they created it to better communicate information with their customers instead of doing it with um design rule manuals, which are paper printed documents. Okay. So they did it, they wanted to create something that was a digital definition that they could give someone, and they wanted the industry to both read and write this data format.

unknown: 4:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 4:01

Because it allows interoperability.

SPEAKER_11: 4:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 4:03

So, you know, they drove um a group of companies to come together to help uh adopt the format. Siemens was part of it, every EDA vendor was part of it. Then when they got it to a certain level, they wanted to get it turned into a bona fide industry standard. It was still proprietary at the time. So they worked with IEEE and it's now being adopted by IEEE. So they've taken over.

SPEAKER_11: 4:29

This is not an interface like UCIE.

SPEAKER_09: 4:32

No, it's not. No, it's not. It's just I would think of it. Remember Edith? Oh. I'm sorry to say that word. Alright. Do you know you know things like JEDEC, IDX, IDF? It's kind of like that.

SPEAKER_11: 4:48

Right, I think that's right.

SPEAKER_09: 4:49

But it's but it's really targeted for uh semiconductor package assembly.

SPEAKER_11: 4:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 4:53

So what happened was that ASE wanted to proliferate the adoption of their VIP technology, and they believed that doing so with 3D blocks, giving out 3D blocks definitions of their advanced packages, would be a good way for people to easily consume and adopt them. Because 3D blocks is read by all the EDA vendors. So they all read it. So, for example, if I was to create 3D blocks in tool A, tool Z from a completely different vendor can read it because it's a well-structured language, they can read it and interpret it correctly.

SPEAKER_11: 5:29

I get it.

SPEAKER_09: 5:30

Now the challenge is that you have to author 3D blocks. So there is a there is a written language specification, and you can type it by hand, it's YAML, which is human readable, but that's not a very efficient way of doing it. So ASE in Kaoshung, um, led by Dr. CP Hung, came to our guys and said, Look, do you have anything to help me digitally author 3D blocks files? And we said, Yes, we have Innovator 3D IC, and you can actually build um a digital model of your uh package assembly in that tool, and we can export 3D blocks. So we can read 3D blocks, we can author 3D blocks, we can edit 3D blocks, and we can spit out export 3D blocks.

SPEAKER_11: 6:18

Okay, so the collaboration is between Siemens and ASE on using your tool, the Innovator 3DIC, to enable them to create the 3D blocks workflows that they can then give their customers their property. Okay, and 3D blocks is open source.

SPEAKER_09: 6:36

It's an open standard.

SPEAKER_11: 6:39

No, oh no, no. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_09: 6:41

No, we're part of the language definition team, as are all the other EDA vendors, but we sit on the committee and we give them guidance. But you know, now it's owned by IEEE, they have a very rigorous and formal process to turn it into a true global worldwide standard. Even though at the moment you you could argue it's semi-proprietary, still has a lot of TSMC in it, right? It's still very usable and it works. And so the team in Kaoshung at ASE got to using Innovator 3D IC to put together their various uh platforms that they offer. It's basically Focus, which is a fan-out wafer level package, Focus Bridge, which again is focused, but this time with embedded um silicon little mini bridges to go between the die or the chiplets, and then their two and a half and three D middle end of line uh solution, um, which is an interposer, basically an interposer. So for those three very advanced platforms, they use our innovator 3D IC software to prototype the 3D assembly so they get it all correct, so it's manufacturable, then they export the 3D blocks files, then they can give it to their customers. And even if their customers do not use Siemens, the other EDA tools can all read it. So whether you're using a competitive tool of ours, it makes no difference. And that's what I that's what appealed to ASE because their customers use all the EDA vendors. They can't be one vendor specific. So they like the fact that it's very neutral.

SPEAKER_11: 8:13

Now, this is an ex not an exclusive license to ASE. No, you could have the same arrangement down the road with a ASEAN. With everybody, yes.

SPEAKER_09: 8:22

I mean basically, you know, ASE are one of our OSAT Alliance members, as you said, so are AMCOR as well, as well as other OSATs. But no, any of any of them can approach us for this. ASE are just, in my opinion, they're very forward-looking. And and typically OSATs are not forward-looking, right? They're very conservative, um, but they're quite forward-looking, and they believe this is the way they can drive greater engagement with new customers and prospects. And we were very excited to work with them. You know, I've known CP um at ASE in Kaoshung for many, many years. He's a very easy gentleman to work with, and um, they were great. So, you know, that's what we announced last week. And you know, ASC can deliver that 3D blocks models today. They're all fully ready to go. So all customers have to do is contact their ASC representative and request a 3D blocks file for the VIPAC technologies.

SPEAKER_11: 9:17

Well, there you go. Okay. Before I let you go, I just want to get a little input on where you think advanced packaging is headed because I feel like advanced packaging is finally getting the spotlight that it's been deserving for so long. So, what do you think is going to be next now that people are finally getting it?

SPEAKER_09: 9:35

So, you know, a lot of people, especially in AI and hyperscalers, edge node, and high you know, the what you heard this morning, they are looking at getting lower pica-joule per bit. That's what they really need. It's all about power, right? Because you look at some of these um data centers, they can they you know, terawatts of power. Right. So 3D is the way to go, going vertical, because then you get the shortest metal pathway, and you can lose much lower voltages, so therefore your pica joule per bit is much lower. The problem you have with that, one of the things the biggest problems we see thermal and thermally induced stress on the transistors, basically, because they're so close together now, because you've stacked logic devices, then the next is a test. Test is a real problem.

SPEAKER_11: 10:25

This is always the same thing, it always comes down to thermal and test. Always, always, always. I've been hearing this for oh going on 20 years. So I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. I know that the HIR roadmap is focused on thermal. I know that there's a whole conference that's running concurrent with this one on thermal. So yeah, I think I think you're right, and we'll be interested to see where it goes.

SPEAKER_09: 10:48

You know, traditionally you use um probe cards with probe needles. So the problem there is, you know, the density of probe needles can only go so far, and um, so people are struggling with that. Also, the probe pressure on die can be quite significant, and you're concerned about damaging the die. And then, secondly, is the amount of power you require to test these devices. We've heard from some customers that they have to use a kilowatt of power to test some 3D chiplets, and that's excessive. You can't do that, so you have to end up using multiple pro cards and testing the assembly at multiple levels, which is very expensive and time consuming. So there are some real challenges to overcome. Design is always the easy part, it's fabrication test, and then reliability. That's the hard part.

SPEAKER_11: 11:38

Somebody'll have to keep an eye on it for me. Yes, okay, because I'm done.

SPEAKER_09: 11:43

Don't rub it in.

SPEAKER_11: 11:45

Thanks so much, it's always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_09: 11:47

Pleasure to you again. Thank you.

SPEAKER_11: 11:52

So, my next guests today are from our premium members, ACM Research, and we have two repeat guests, Sally Ann Henry and Jim Strauss. But we have a very special new guest who has joined the company probably six months ago, and his name is Leo Archer. Leo and I were business partners a long time ago, but not since I've been podcasting. So this is a trip down memory lane. Leo, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. And Sally Ann and Jim, of course. Thank you. One of the themes this week has been the silicon guys finally catching on to advanced packaging. And Leo was previously on the front end and now he's here learning all about advanced packaging. So, Leo, tell me a little bit about yourself and your new role at ACM.

SPEAKER_06: 12:42

So, uh spent almost 20 years in the front end, everything from transistor through interconnect. And uh for the longest time, that was the focus of everything. We're all driven by Moore's Law. And when you and I got into business a long time ago around this, um, that was still probably pretty much the case, but I certainly didn't foresee just how the evolution of packaging would take place. And I was actually out of the industry for almost a decade doing other things, and I'm back in now. And part of the reason I'm back in is because a company like ACM, who's growing and has uh actually a broad range of portfolios for a lot of different things, front-end and back end, is also making huge inroads into wafer lever packaging. So that of course sparked my interest to see just what is happening, and I think from conferences conferences like this and even some of the others that I was in there earlier this summer, um, it's become very apparent that to continue the migration to next generation technologies, particularly driven by AI, it's not going to be on the transistor anymore. We have reached the laws of physics limits, and unless we do a dramatic change in design andor materials, that's not going to change. So it is now down to packaging. And if we want to do a 4 to 5x improvement annually, there's no other way to do it with packaging. So I will state up front, get it out of the way, because I know it was coming. You were right, Francoise.

SPEAKER_11: 14:14

Oh, but I said that before. I love being right.

SPEAKER_06: 14:19

That's my homage to your retirement. No, it's you you foresaw it definitely when we talked about 3D Insights way back in the day. Um, I think it was a very novel concept and it may have been ahead of its time at the time. Absolutely. But you stuck with it, and I think a huge change was the fact that social media in general became so ubiquitous, and so everybody was involved in social media, and that's just grown and grown and grown. And you've taken a concept that was so foreign to an extremely conservative industry, particularly in the front end. And you adopted it and made it made it what it is today. So I mean, kudos to you for that. There's no two ways about it.

SPEAKER_11: 14:56

Thank you. I mean, there's still thank you. And I think it's really funny though that Intel still puts up the slide that says Moore's Law. But now we include that second paragraph that says maybe there may be a time we're gonna have to take these chips and stack them to achieve the performance power area and cost. And I was like, huh.

SPEAKER_10: 15:13

And I hadn't even read that, but I'm glad that's I saw you I saw you taking a picture of that slide in the presentation. Right.

SPEAKER_11: 15:21

So Intel Intel is sticking to their guns. They did it all. It was Moore's law.

SPEAKER_06: 15:25

But it's not even funny, it's no longer now kind of getting away from Moore's law. And it was never really a law, it was an observation.

SPEAKER_11: 15:32

It was an observation, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 15:33

So even the great Intel has to adapt and change it.

SPEAKER_11: 15:38

Right. Well, and ACM in general started out in the front-end processes, but you guys have seen for a while the opportunities and especially in panel level packaging. Sally, and last year was your first I'm up symposium. And they were talking about panel level packaging, but that conversation has really exploded, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_03: 16:00

Exploded dramatically. And I think what we're seeing is there's no uniform uh standard for panels. I mean, you've got the 310 by 310, 510 by 525, 600 by 600, 700 by 700. So where is the actual standardization? There isn't any. And for an equipment manufacturer, it makes it very difficult to design for all these different panel sizes. It doesn't make it easy.

SPEAKER_11: 16:30

Yeah, welcome to advanced packaging because there are no standards, and people keep asking for them. And that's one of the things I've noticed from the silicon guys coming into packaging, even in last week's um executive summit. It was it'll be really helpful for us in the material side if there was standards around advanced packaging, and everybody was kind of like, they think there's a standard for panel, it's 510 by 515 or 600 by 600.

SPEAKER_02: 16:56

Right.

SPEAKER_11: 16:57

Um but then I just started hearing about the 310, which is basically a square 300 millimeter wafer, right? So, yes, how is this proposing a challenge to develop panel tools?

SPEAKER_10: 17:08

So this is all about the economics, right? So um Leo was talking about ticks required for technology, but the panel is all about just the economics of it, right? Because you can do so many more devices on a panel than you can on a 300 millimeter wafer. As it turns out, 510 by 515 is a good size for being able to do 5x the number of chips. 600 by 600, maybe it's a little bit better, but it doesn't really buy you that much. And 510 by 515 is the standard that a lot of companies I think Intel is going five by the same.

SPEAKER_11: 17:50

That's right. Yeah. That's another thing I've heard recently is the original argument for panel level packaging was increased volume. Now it's really the large size of the AI chips that it's a requirement.

SPEAKER_10: 18:06

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_11: 18:07

So because those chips got larger, you're losing more space on the wafer. And the other thing is that that little burst towards panel in the beginning that kind of like went away for a while, was because those volumes dropped, and they were never gonna need that many devices that would be on the panel. So now I'm hearing though, you said it, they said it last week, that we need the volumes again at a smaller size.

SPEAKER_06: 18:33

Two things stand out to me as kind of being an outsider coming back in, particularly into this end. First of all, the back end of the line is now the front end of the line, because in a sense, the challenges that were faced in the front end all that time ago, you're now facing in the back end. Standardization, a lot of materials that have to be treated, you know, we did 20 years ago on the front end. But the other thing that um when you look at AI by 2030 is gonna be about 300 billion, three thereabouts, four years later is expected to be a trillion dollar by itself. So if you take the basic five chipsets that are used for AI, that's gonna require huge volumes. Every phone next generation is gonna have AI built into it, you know, automotive, medical, all of these things. So what went before is like you said, it may not have been as critical to have as many. All of a sudden, it's gonna be in everything and everywhere. And so then the cost that Jim talks about is gonna be a bigger factor.

SPEAKER_11: 19:32

And if they're gonna be going into our phones, they're gonna have to shrink again. Yes. So we keep doing the same thing over and over. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Exactly. So with the challenges of not having standards, how do you design a tool to support a client?

SPEAKER_10: 19:51

The tools that we're building, uh we're purposely building them to be able to support panels at 510, 515, as well as 600 by 600.

SPEAKER_11: 20:01

So do they have to be huge?

SPEAKER_10: 20:02

They're very big tools. They take up a lot of space in a clean room.

SPEAKER_11: 20:07

And I remember when the 450 days, it was all the front-end processes being developed on 450, but nobody was thinking about the tools for advanced packaging because they were still thinking about tape and reel and boats, and everything was being delivered on chips, and they weren't realizing that wafer-level packaging requires the tools to also be developed for the packaging space.

SPEAKER_06: 20:26

But think about if you know the average tool in wafer level packaging 15 years ago. If they spent more than 150,000, 200,000, they were they were shocked.

SPEAKER_11: 20:36

Right.

SPEAKER_06: 20:37

Now they're spending what the front end costs. And that's a paradigm shift in everything.

SPEAKER_11: 20:43

It really is fun to have watched all of this happen over the last 20 years that I've been in the industry. Um and things don't move ever as fast as you think they might, which is probably why I was ahead of things, because I was like because I would talk to people and they would say, Well, this is gonna happen in a few years, and then it'd keep getting pushed out. And I was a newcomer to the industry and I couldn't understand why. And I actually could see that the system level costs would be reduced if more money was spent in the packaging side, but everybody was still stuck on the packaging as a cost adder, packaging has to be cheap, and it took a really long time to get people to realize differently. And I think Subu Ayer actually did a really good job in the beginning. He is the first person I ever heard to say talk about disaggregating an SOC into its functional parts and reassembling them, and and that is what is now chip technology today. So I want to give you guys a chance to talk about some of the new developments at ACM since we last talked. We got a few more minutes left.

SPEAKER_03: 21:48

Well, not necessarily related to um obviously we have our panels, we have copper plating, metal copper plating for panels. We also have uh bevel cleaned for the panels, we have a new product for wafers, which does frame cleaning. Um we also have um in the definitely on the front end is uh track. We have a track system with 12 quoters and 12 developers that you can connect up to an ASML scanner. Okay. And we also have what we call a copper deplating system for compound semiconductors, which has just recently been introduced. So we're basically doing like a opposite of ECP. Okay. Right. Um I don't know how to best describe it, but basically DCP. Yeah. Deplating copper.

SPEAKER_11: 22:44

So I'm not really familiar in the compound space, other than the fact that it's I've always been told that compound semiconductor is the original 3D. Um but why would we have to deplate copper?

SPEAKER_10: 22:57

So I think you actually plate it, and then there are spaces where you have to remove copper. So it's like a selective etch. It's a selective etch.

SPEAKER_06: 23:08

That's exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_11: 23:09

And what's the purpose of it?

SPEAKER_06: 23:11

It's just part of like uh almost like the mass process where you're laying down a pattern. Okay. And you've laid down a bulk copper film. Okay. And you've got a response.

SPEAKER_11: 23:18

So this is a front-end process again, sort of. It's not a packaging process. Well, it's more backends. It's an in-between. It's in between. Okay. Okay, and that is a new announcement that you just launched that tool. Yes. And then you also launched another wafer tool for the front end, the track. The track. Okay. Well, I enjoyed this conversation. Leo, it's so good to talk to you again. I mean, really, it's been too long. It is. You know. We should do this again.

SPEAKER_06: 23:46

Life is life.

SPEAKER_11: 23:46

Who knows? Well, when you come back out of retirement and uh, I am leaving, you know, I'm leaving that option open because nothing's worse than showing up at something when somebody says, I thought you retired.

SPEAKER_06: 23:59

Well, I think you know I think IMAP should hire you to come back and do these things on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_11: 24:04

Well, maybe they will, it'll make me an offer, make it a good one.

SPEAKER_06: 24:08

One you can't refuse.

SPEAKER_11: 24:09

Yeah. All right. But in the meantime, we wish you happy retirement. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. At least for a little while. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06: 24:18

For the next thing.

SPEAKER_11: 24:23

My next guest is Phil Sundon from Shellback Semiconductor, and they're actually a fairly new company with 3D insights anyway. So I'd like to give him a chance to tell us a little bit about himself and the company and where they see advanced packaging headed. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 24:39

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here and happy to see you in person finally. So it's been a good thing.

SPEAKER_11: 24:44

I know it happens. You know, we we only get together at these live events most of the time. And then it's a lot of zooming.

SPEAKER_00: 24:50

Uh-huh. And and it's interesting, our paths are always crossing in some way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_11: 24:54

So it's a small industry. That's one of the things I love about it.

SPEAKER_00: 24:57

It is, it is. And and I love about it too. I mean, it's uh 30 plus years I've been in this industry. So um so Philip Sundan, uh, I'm with Shellback Semiconductor for just over two years now, um, business development manager, which uh essentially means I wear a lot of hats. I help the sales team uh engage with customers on a technical level. Um I spend a lot of time in Europe with our sales director there, Yannick Pilau. Happy to be here at this uh conference, and I took a lot of the sessions yesterday um to try to get more up to speed on things. Um our involvement, or at least my involvement, has typically been just with um UBM etch, um photos of strip applications back end of line. Uh so yeah, I thought I'd take some of the uh the learning sessions yesterday.

SPEAKER_11: 25:42

And yeah, that's one of the really good things about IMAPs is their professional development courses. You know, I was at an IMAX executive summit last week. I did a panel on strategies in the future of advanced packaging and and market trends and what's driving it. And someone asked who was new to the segment of the industry. A lot of people who were there were front-end people that are now recognizing that advanced packaging is important and really the key to what's coming next. So someone asked, Well, how much more innovation will we need in advanced packaging? And and the panelists and I we kind of like looked at each other, and I was like, Well, I think you're never gonna not need innovation in advanced packaging. Someone else asked about standardizing in advanced packaging, and they've never really been able to standardize advanced packaging.

SPEAKER_00: 26:30

And and what is the standard panel size? Uh we just heard that this morning.

SPEAKER_11: 26:34

Three.

SPEAKER_00: 26:35

Wait, four.

SPEAKER_11: 26:36

The semi-standard is 500 by 515 and then 600 by 600. But they've heard 700 by 700 we have. Yeah, well, you know, you'll get this. Anytime you bring in a new size of anything, you need to re-qualify the processes to make that make sure they're gonna work on the different dimensions, right? So you previously, before Shellback, your history you said is a photoresist strip and UBM etch, photoresist strip, metal lift-off. The removal processes, the cleaning processes and the etching processes. So, how have you seen that shifted? I mean, how that's always been round processes, right? How is panel impacting that?

SPEAKER_00: 27:17

Interesting. So uh several years ago I was involved in some panel projects with an ultrasonic company. So um we had the fog nozzles and curtain nozzles and things like that. So how do you spin a square substrate and effectively coat and cover all the way to the edges?

SPEAKER_11: 27:33

Is it gonna be like a what is it like the slit coat? It's more of a scan. The slit coating?

SPEAKER_00: 27:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_11: 27:38

Okay. So your you told me before we got on that your specialty is really around single wafer processing.

SPEAKER_00: 27:45

That is my history for 11 years before I came to Shellback. So Shellback is obviously batch spray, the legacy semi-tool process.

SPEAKER_11: 27:53

Well, I heard last week that according to Chat GPT, single wafer processing is going to be the way to go. Tell me a little bit about Shellback and what you guys specialize in.

SPEAKER_00: 28:03

That's a nice segue. Thank you. Um, Shellback, uh, we own the IP to the legacy semi-tool um spray batch or batch spray um technology. It's a full cassette of wafers, uh 200 millimeter, 100 millimeter. It's a legacy process line that is used throughout the world, continues to be used throughout the world. If somebody says I'm going to pick up a gyroscope and start to manufacture that, they'll look at the history. Okay, how do you manufacture a gyroscope? And their semi-tools name. So it's just been around forever. It's been the process tool of record in so many of these.

SPEAKER_11: 28:35

But this is a batch tool.

SPEAKER_00: 28:37

It's a batch tool. So yes, now we're talking about single wafer. So there's advantages and disadvantages, just like everything.

SPEAKER_02: 28:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 28:44

Um, spending 11 years in single wafer processing. I am a huge fan of Screen and Tell as an equipment company. They're the best in the world. They're doing front-end of line processes that nobody else can do. So, from a single wafer standpoint, there are there certainly are advantages. Um, single wafer processing is one wafer at a time. So you can control the selectivity of the etch from center to edge. Um, you can certainly remove things uh evenly and cleanly, where if you're doing a batch spray, you've got the wafers sandwiched between each other. So if uh different types of material is coming off, it might get trapped. So there's it just depends on the process and what you're trying to do. But batch spray gives you the benefit of spraying 25 wafers at a time. Right. So the throughput is typically much higher. So on devices that are fairly simple, um, if it's a metal liftoff process, the metal coming off is like glitter, I always say. Okay. Then we can manage glitter very easily and very quickly. So if it's a glitter removal process, great. That's that lends itself to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_11: 29:54

I love that analogy. I mean, I've been hearing about metal liftoff for a long time. And I kind of got it, but you just made it crystal clear. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00: 30:05

Right? Right.

SPEAKER_11: 30:06

Who doesn't love glitter?

SPEAKER_00: 30:07

Uh-huh. Yes. Uh uh. Showgirl glitter.

SPEAKER_11: 30:11

So do you have a single process tool?

SPEAKER_00: 30:14

So uh certainly Semi-Tool did have a single wafer process tool. Um, it was a face-down process. It was actually very successful. And it was used in a lot of applications where, if you can imagine, gravity lends itself to uh a removal process. So if that's beneficial, yes. We currently don't make that tool, but we do own the IP to it. So we could manufacture that again, just depends on what's happening. So the business situation the way it is right now, we're focusing on the batch spray tool.

SPEAKER_11: 30:46

So did Shellback basically acquire all of the technology of semitool? Is it a rebrand of semi-tool?

SPEAKER_00: 30:53

Uh not a rebrand necessarily. So when Applied Materials purchased semi-tool from Ray Thompson, uh what they were interested in was the copper plating technology. Okay, yeah. So they didn't really care about the metal liftoff or the cleaning or the etching processes, they just wanted that copper plating. So they spun that off to a group called OEM Group.

SPEAKER_11: 31:14

Ah, okay. You remember OEM groups? Yes. The history.

SPEAKER_00: 31:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_11: 31:18

Did we were we talking before about how small this industry is? It is, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 31:22

Yes, yes. So the owners of OEM Group thought that they wanted to get out of this industry.

SPEAKER_11: 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:27

You can never leave. By the way.

SPEAKER_11: 31:30

Yes, no, I understand that.

SPEAKER_00: 31:31

They pretty much dissolved OEM group, sold off things, but uh, there was a passion for the wet process that remained. And so they reacquired the wet process group that's in Coopersburg, Pennsylvania, which is where our headquarters is.

SPEAKER_11: 31:43

I see, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 31:44

So that is the original Retech facility, which was owned by Semi-Tool.

SPEAKER_11: 31:49

Okay. And so all of the IP, as I look on your website, I'm seeing yeah, exclusive semi-tool product and IP owner.

SPEAKER_02: 31:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_11: 31:58

You've rebranded it, you've done different things to the tools, improved them. Um, one of the tools that you recently announced, and that I think you're advertising on 3D Insights right now, is something called um the Tarrant. It talks about hydrazone and fluorizone processes.

SPEAKER_00: 32:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_11: 32:16

Can you explain what those are?

SPEAKER_00: 32:18

Yes, yes. So in a nutshell, it is using Hydrazone as the accelerator for a process. So Hydrozone in itself is a great oxidizer. And what we are promoting is what Semitool developed, and in fact, won the Best of the West award in 2009 at Semicon West for this technology. 15 years ago. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_11: 32:42

See, this is what I'm talking about. I've been doing this for 15 years. I need a new story.

SPEAKER_00: 32:47

So so Best of the West 15 years ago, but we had this great product back then, or this great material back then called NMP.

SPEAKER_11: 32:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 32:56

And everybody was using NMP for resist strip, which is what hydrazone can be used for. So they said, okay, this is great. This is a neat little trick, but we don't need to use this. We've got NMP. Well, now, 15 years later, people realize, oh, well, NMP maybe isn't as great as we thought it was for the environment. So they are starting to come back and look to us because hydrazone is able to replace hazardous chemicals. Essentially, what comes out of the tool at the end of the day is hot water.

SPEAKER_11: 33:25

Okay, so that is really interesting to me. And also it just reminds me about how sometimes it's about timing. Absolutely. And you develop a technology and it doesn't take off, and it generally has something to do with we use whatever we have as long as we can until we can't use it anymore. And that was how a lot why it took so long for 3D stacking to happen. A lot of these technologies are like you said, no never goes away. Right. But once there's a time for it, we pull it out and we reintroduce it. And the thing is, you have a lot of new people.

SPEAKER_00: 34:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_11: 34:01

Because that's the other thing. My other theme these days is like I've been telling the same story, but it's a new audience. It's always a new audience. And right now, the audience is the silicon guys that are finally going, okay, maybe we should take a look at advanced packaging.

SPEAKER_00: 34:13

Right.

SPEAKER_11: 34:14

And so that made us legit.

SPEAKER_00: 34:15

Right. So right. And it's, I mean, I spent 13 years in Portland, Oregon, and I became a little bit of a tree hugger there. I was already a tree hugger. So I'm passionate about this hydrozome project. Um, that's what I spend a lot of my time trying to convince people that it is actually a viable process. Um, process engineers are very risk averse, as we know. Um, if it's working in the fab, nobody wants to upset the Apple cart.

SPEAKER_02: 34:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 34:40

But yeah, so we've got the newer process engineers that are coming in, and we've always relied on our semi-tool legacy brand name. The newer process engineers don't know semi-tool, they've never heard of semi-tool. Right. But let's talk about a green technology, Hydrazone.

SPEAKER_11: 34:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 34:54

That is of interest.

SPEAKER_11: 34:56

So let me ask you this because we focused on sustainability for a long time. Um the industry is still working on it, I believe. The globally, everybody cares. Right here in our little country, suddenly sustainability is a made-up story.

SPEAKER_02: 35:13

Right.

SPEAKER_11: 35:13

The risk of going down the geopolitical how does that I mean, are are companies based in the US facing uh elimination of those requirements, or are they sticking with it because they know it's the right thing to do?

SPEAKER_00: 35:27

Right, right. And I mean, fundamentally you can just use this as a um an argument for cost reduction because solvents and formulated solvents are extremely expensive. DI water is expensive when you think about the environmental impact, but it is much less expensive than a solvent, a formulated solvent. I'm not bashing the solvent people because we use solvents in our spray solvent tool. But if we can offset some of that, 10% of that, think of the the impact of that.

SPEAKER_11: 35:57

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 35:58

So yeah, I'm not saying that hydrazone is going to fit every single application, but certainly 10 to 20% of them could benefit from this hydrazone technology. So photoresist strip, that's a proven application. Um, polymer removal, that's another proven application in this industry here. Um so it's it's definitely a viable technology that it's it's worth talking about.

SPEAKER_11: 36:21

Okay. Well, that's all we have time for today.

SPEAKER_00: 36:24

Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_11: 36:25

Thank you. Okay, so my next guests are from DECA. I'm speaking with Robin Davis and Tim Olson. This is not their first rodeo. They've been on the podcast a number of times because DECA is a premium member of 3D Insights. Thank you both. Thank you. One of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately is how we've been telling the same story about advanced packaging for about 15 years, but the audience keeps changing. So they still have to learn why advanced packaging is so great. But we finally find that the silicon guys are starting to realize that too. And Tim, you and I were both at the um IMAPS Executive Summit last week in uh Silicon Valley, and I was actually having trouble coming up with something to write about because it was nothing was new to me. But I realized that the audience was new. So you've been in the industry for a while. Where do you see now that Silicon Valley has finally caught on, how do you see that impacting the future of advanced packaging?

SPEAKER_04: 37:35

That's a great question. Much more involvement up and down the supply chain. And as you mentioned, a lot of new participants uh involved. At that conference you referenced, you and I uh were able to listen to one of the leading private equity firms um in semiconductors. And what hasn't changed is even with all the advancements in advanced packaging, as a private equity investor, he said, I really don't invest in packaging, and I don't invest in equipment for packaging.

SPEAKER_11: 38:03

I thought he just said he didn't invest in equipment.

SPEAKER_04: 38:06

No, he was very negative.

SPEAKER_11: 38:08

Very negative about advanced packaging. So if you have an advanced packaging startup, don't go to the VCs for money.

SPEAKER_04: 38:13

Exactly. Equip money was incredibly negative.

SPEAKER_11: 38:16

No, he was incredibly negative about that.

SPEAKER_04: 38:18

But he was also negative on packaging. And he said it's changed a lot and it's much more attractive, but it's still not attractive to them. And the reason is they're looking for a thousand times multiple when they invest in a company. And I think advanced packaging is a very exciting industry now, and we're doing amazing things with the technology. However, it is still many ways, it's in a support role to create the system or the silicon. It's acting as a supporting cast member to the silicon. So advanced packaging is still an enabling technology to make our industry work.

SPEAKER_11: 38:52

But it's very important.

SPEAKER_04: 38:54

Of course.

SPEAKER_11: 38:54

Now, you though are the CEO of what was an advanced packaging startup that has successfully transitioned out of startup mode into a full company, right?

SPEAKER_04: 39:11

We are self-sustaining, but I feel we're still a teenager. We're sev 16 years old. And yes, my damn teenager. Exactly. So I was at Amcore before I started DECA, and the famous uh founder and chairman of Amcore, Jim Kim, came and had dinner with me when I resigned to tell him I was starting a DECA. He said, Tim, do you realize that 98% of all startups fail in the first 10 years? And at dinner I got all animated and said, Wow, 2% make it? And he knew that I'd be a problem. So I we're I'm really proud to say DECA is part of that 2% that made it.

SPEAKER_11: 39:47

Well, I remember when DECA launched because that was one of the first things I did with 3D Insights was to be part of that press corps that went to the launch party. And even though at the time I was focused mostly on 3D integration, there was still a lot of exciting things and also the potential for whatever DECA was putting out. At the time, you just had your chipscale package, but you had the plans for M series and you had the plans for um, I don't know if you had the plans for adaptive patterning already. We didn't. But oh, but you were very quiet. We learned all about making wine that night. Didn't learn a whole lot about DECA, but so I'm super excited to have been part of that journey with you.

SPEAKER_04: 40:33

Very excited to have you along the whole time.

SPEAKER_11: 40:35

So the journey continues. And the last time we talked at ECTC, you had big news with IBM, and then you just recently made another announcement. And Robin, you were instrumental in that, I believe.

SPEAKER_07: 40:48

Yeah. Um, the whole team was really involved, but uh, we released a press release with SST a couple weeks ago now, announcing an NVM chiplet package that we're putting together with them, and that is enabling them to pull out what they've traditionally provided as IP that their customers can implement in their chips into a separate chiplet package, take it out of that silicon and allow that silicon to scale to finer nodes while keeping the memory separate. We'll be helping them implement that in our technology and prove out the solution so that their customers don't have to redesign the package from the ground up and they can just almost plug and play their device and do it.

SPEAKER_11: 41:42

So let's back up a little bit for people who don't know, and that would be me. Who is SST? What do they do?

SPEAKER_07: 41:49

Uh so SST stands for Silicon Storage Technology, and uh they're a subsidiary of Microchip. They provide memory IP.

SPEAKER_11: 42:00

So are they a design house then?

SPEAKER_07: 42:02

Yes. They're IP in the same way that um I mean DECA's IP as well. Yes, but we're physical implementation. Okay. And they develop the silicon structures that are going to be implemented.

SPEAKER_11: 42:14

Okay. And then they use your IP to do the packaging. Yes. Very cool. They're part of Microchip.

SPEAKER_07: 42:23

They're a subsidiary of Microchip.

SPEAKER_04: 42:25

They were a startup many years ago in Silicon Valley and they did a great job of carving out a niche in the market to be the leading non-vol NVM is non-volatile memory, but permanent memory, independent of the power being there or not. So they are the number one company in the world that makes this type of memory technology. And it's important because when you touch on on a semiconductor, uh the on button, the power turns on and it has to go read its instructions from somewhere of what to do. That's where it comes from, is from that NVM memory.

SPEAKER_02: 42:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 42:55

So they created this soft IP that went inside other people's chips and um for the last couple decades. And then Microchip acquired them uh several years ago, and they're but they're a subsidiary, but they operate independently. So they still have their own set of customers, in many cases competitors of microchip, actually, other microcontroller companies and other analysts.

SPEAKER_11: 43:16

Wrapping my head around this, the difference between volatile memory and non-volatile memory is that one is needs power.

SPEAKER_04: 43:24

Yeah, DRAM DRAM is classic volatile memory.

SPEAKER_11: 43:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 43:27

And the beauty of DRAM is it's super fast and it's relatively low power, so that's why DRAM's big in AI and all those things. But um and in the case of DRAM, you constantly not only you have to have the power on, you constantly have to refresh it.

SPEAKER_11: 43:41

So it's when you save it, so let's say you have a Word document and you're writing away, did power goes out and you lose that whole thing because you didn't save it, because it was just the DRAM.

SPEAKER_04: 43:53

That would be a problem.

SPEAKER_11: 43:53

But if you saved it, then you've transferred all of that data information over to the nonvolatile memory.

SPEAKER_04: 44:00

Exactly. And in that case, you're probably transferring it to a solid state disk drive in your laptop. And that is a different type of nonvolatile memory called NAND flash, which you've probably heard of. And NORFlash, those so there's different types of NVM. Um but uh the stuff in your hard drive is built by other companies, uh, so that's where your Word document would go, would be on that other non-volatile memory.

SPEAKER_07: 44:23

SST's NVM they refer to as EFlash for embedded flash, embedded within the chip itself.

SPEAKER_11: 44:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_07: 44:32

Or embedded within the chiplet package now.

SPEAKER_11: 44:35

Right. Okay. You've got the chiplet package, but only part of that is the memory. There's also logic correct chips in the package.

SPEAKER_07: 44:43

Historically SST's IP was being implemented in the chip.

SPEAKER_11: 44:48

Right, so it was an SOC.

SPEAKER_07: 44:50

Yeah. And now it's going to be split out from that. Okay. Memory is its own chiplet.

SPEAKER_11: 44:55

So that is a good example for anybody who doesn't understand the whole concept of disaggregation of an SOC. An SOC is a system on a chip, and you have the logic and the memory, and maybe the RF device, and I don't know, anything digital, right? Is you don't can you have analog? Yeah, you can have analog and so clearly. All right. So then it's a function of design, right? You design it separately but to work together. And then that is packaged, so that's where DECA comes in.

SPEAKER_04: 45:34

Yeah, absolutely. It's really interconnect technology and it becomes a package, but it's hooking that NVM chiplet that it needs hundreds and hundreds of wires, and it's a tiny chiplet. It might be probably less than two millimeters in dimension. And it has a couple thousand wires potentially back to the chip because you've got a lot of interconnect to the brains of the chip. In a lot of cases, that's a microcontroller. The most typical SOC that it's been used with is MCUs. So all the leading MCU companies pretty much use SST. And then a lot of other analog DSP companies that also use uh use that.

SPEAKER_11: 46:10

So this is a big win for you guys. Big big win. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_04: 46:15

Thank you, Russ.

SPEAKER_11: 46:16

I think we're gonna have to call it a day. I hope I get to talk to you guys again.

SPEAKER_04: 46:20

I hope so too. We're gonna miss you. You're retiring, my goodness. What's the industry?

SPEAKER_11: 46:25

But does anybody ever retire from this industry? I'm retiring from 3D Insights. Let's see what happens next. I'm gonna take a little break. Write a novel.

SPEAKER_04: 46:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_07: 46:40

I love that for you.

SPEAKER_04: 46:42

Perfect. All right, you guys.

SPEAKER_11: 46:44

Good to talk to you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_04: 46:45

Thank you.

SPEAKER_11: 46:50

So I'm speaking with Liam Thorpe from Norton Corporation, and Norton is one of our premium members. Welcome to the podcast, Liam.

SPEAKER_05: 46:58

Hi, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_11: 46:59

So I was excited to talk to you before we started the conversation and learn that you are brand new to the advanced packaging industry. So that's our favorite people to talk to to get your impressions so far.

SPEAKER_05: 47:09

I'm excited to give impressions, frankly, very excited to be in advanced packaging. It's really there's just so much going on. It's been it's been really a fantastic kind of place to start.

SPEAKER_11: 47:21

So where did you come from?

SPEAKER_05: 47:24

Yeah, so I I previously worked in uh for about 18 months out of college in the automotive space uh doing design and release engineering for uh electric vehicles.

SPEAKER_11: 47:36

Oh, okay. So where were you based?

SPEAKER_05: 47:38

I was based out of Irvine, California.

SPEAKER_11: 47:40

Okay, so not you weren't working for Tesla, were you?

SPEAKER_05: 47:42

I was not working for Tesla, no. No.

SPEAKER_11: 47:46

So glad to hear that. So what led you to Nordsen?

SPEAKER_05: 47:51

So I um I was looking for uh new opportunity. Um unfortunately, electric vehicles is a little volatile.

SPEAKER_11: 47:58

Um depends on who you are.

SPEAKER_05: 48:03

So they uh they handed the uh our engineering department, the Sia Never, uh kicked us out, and I uh I ended up looking for something new kind of in that space. I really had enjoyed with the designer release engineers a lot of work in kind of coordinating across systems with customer input and you know basically marrying hardware, software, and and user experience.

SPEAKER_01: 48:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 48:29

Um especially in in the uh exterior space, which is what I was working on. So I really was looking for something in that area, and that's what what pointed me to Nordson, and uh that's where I ended up.

SPEAKER_11: 48:41

And what did you study in university?

SPEAKER_05: 48:43

I'm a mechanical engineer.

SPEAKER_11: 48:44

Mechanical engineer, okay, because we know this industry, you can be a mechanical engineer, you can be a materials engineer, you can be a chemical engineer. The world is your oyster when you're an engineer. So advanced packaging is an exciting space, I've always thought. One of the big topics here this week, and also basically in general, is panel level packaging. And I understand that you're working in the panel level packaging space at Nordson.

SPEAKER_05: 49:12

Yes, yes, we are.

SPEAKER_11: 49:14

So how's it going?

SPEAKER_05: 49:15

It is very exciting. Um we are working uh really diligently right now, taking a lot of customer input um and developing kind of systems to leverage some of our existing excellence um in and around our vantage platform, especially, um, and work that forwards to provide a competitive edge for our customers. We're still kind of in the development and deployment stage, um, but really looking forward to being able to present that to all of our customers uh as a as an opportunity.

SPEAKER_11: 49:46

So, as an equipment manufacturer, because that's what you do, right? You're doing dispense equipment and also plasma equipment. One of the questions out there is about standards around panel size, and that we really haven't standardized. Their most focuses on 500 by 515 or 600 by 600, but now I'm also hearing about 310 by 310, and I'm hearing about 700. What is challenging for an equipment supplier in having to accommodate the potential of different size substrates?

SPEAKER_05: 50:22

It's been really interesting, especially in the space of, you know, with manufacturing hardware, it's especially hard because you cannot change the size of your hardware once you deploy it to the field. And we really want to be sensitive of customers trying to optimize their manufacturing sizes and processes, and that means making a machine with the largest possible area with the smallest possible footprint. So that has been a really interesting sort of uh challenge for us to make sure we're delivering in those larger panel level sizes that have been uh kind of on the cutting edge and also not, you know, delivering a behemoth of a machine that couldn't be used for uh a production space.

SPEAKER_11: 51:02

Aaron Ross Powell Right. So are you focused on one of those sizes?

SPEAKER_05: 51:06

We are not focused on any size in particular, but rather uh the ability to spread uh across a 310 by 310 all the way up to 600 by 600. We're working in kind of all of those.

SPEAKER_11: 51:18

So nobody's really touching the 700s at this point.

SPEAKER_05: 51:21

Not that I've seen, no.

SPEAKER_11: 51:23

What are the challenges in developing materials for panel applications?

SPEAKER_05: 51:28

I think especially with materials, there are so many different ways we can approach dispensing. Um and to that end, choosing materials that especially meet the customer application is obviously very important, but then making sure the equipment is tuned to that material or that application has also been uh I'm not gonna say only a challenge for us. It's also something we've really excelled at and it's been quite fantastic. But with all of the constant updates and improvements and new materials, we see all kinds of exciting new applications, and some, you know, we're prepared to meet, and we're very, you know, excited to be prepared to meet that. And some, you know, we're looking at like, ooh, maybe that is uh a new direction we need to be prepared to go in for for panel level or for other applications, especially.

SPEAKER_11: 52:13

What about different substrate materials like um dealing with dispense on the glass core substrate? Is that something that you are investigating?

SPEAKER_05: 52:23

Yes, yes. Uh lots of different uh approaches to how we want to handle different panels uh and wafers, frankly. You know, we're we're trying to stay flexible and and in tune with our our different customers to provide with the hardware they need and the fixation they need to operate, you know, whatever they want to do to push the cutting edge. We want to be there to support them.

SPEAKER_11: 52:45

Okay. Okay, so you want to tell us about some of your new products in the market?

SPEAKER_05: 52:50

Yeah, so I've been very excited over this uh summer. We've uh recently released the IJ, uh the IntelliJet 1.1. Um it's got some exciting improvements to um our maintenance process so you can run it longer with less uh downtime for maintenance. We've been very pleased with that. And we're doing a lot of work in the vantage space, in making improvements to our flagship and and presenting it in different uh applications and ways to really provide that flagship top of the line experience to our customers, especially where they're looking to push the envelope in packaging and underfill.

SPEAKER_11: 53:25

Okay, and for people who might not be familiar with your tools um by name, can you just explain what the Vantage does and what the IJ does?

SPEAKER_05: 53:34

Yes, yes. Uh our IntelliJet is a piezo-driven uh jetting valve, and the Vantage platform is our actual dispensing machine.

SPEAKER_11: 53:44

Okay, so the IntelliJet works on the Vantage. Yes. And it runs on the Vantage platform.

SPEAKER_05: 53:50

Yes, as many of our valves do.

SPEAKER_11: 53:52

And the um and you're focused on the panel space for this?

SPEAKER_05: 53:56

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_11: 53:57

But you said you still also do obviously you're you still do wafers. Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 54:01

Absolutely, we still do wafers, and we still have plenty of work going on in the wafers space.

SPEAKER_11: 54:06

Oh, I'm sure, because you know it takes a long time.

unknown: 54:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 54:09

Yeah, especially in uh in warpage control. And that's been something that we've been able to sort of take lessons learned in in panel level packaging and in wafer level packaging, the warpage is very important. So we've been doing a lot of work in how do we minimize the warpage for our customers so they can work with these really advanced substrates at different material or different temperatures.

SPEAKER_11: 54:29

And I'm sure depending on the size, it's gonna impact the potential for warpage. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_05: 54:35

Exactly. That's a big struggle in the panel space, is you know, when we're talking 600 millimeter by 600 millimeter, that is a very large panel, and a very small, you know, warpage towards the center is a very large concern as we get towards the edges.

SPEAKER_11: 54:49

Aaron Powell For me, this harkens back to the transition between 200 millimeter and 300 millimeter wafers, where there were processes that were developed and qualified and functioning on the 200 millimeter wafer, such as temporary bond debond, because they were doing it in MEMS and they were doing it in compound semi. And then when they started thinking about doing it for stacking wafers and using TSVs, suddenly that D bond process wasn't working at 300 millimeter, which worked fine. So I that's always stuck in my mind as something you need to think about when you're dealing with process across different size substrates and different using different materials.

SPEAKER_05: 55:28

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_11: 55:29

I'm sure it's something you're very aware of.

SPEAKER_05: 55:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_11: 55:32

Okay. Well, I'm so happy to have met you and thank you for joining me today. And um, you know, thanks for being part of 3D Insights.

SPEAKER_05: 55:42

Thank you.

SPEAKER_11: 55:43

Take care. My next guests are Al Emmons and Ken Peters from View Micrometrology. They are our newest members and they are premium members. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

SPEAKER_01: 55:57

Thank you, Francois.

SPEAKER_11: 55:58

So, because you're new and we've haven't really had many conversations about what it is that you do and what brought you to the advanced packaging industry. Let's start by if each of you just give us a little bit of your background and how you ended up at Vue.

SPEAKER_01: 56:12

Sure. I started with Quality Vision International, the Parent Corporation in 2021. And uh I came from a pharmaceutical wholesale background. Um so this was my first stint in optical metrology. So I learned from the ground up with a division called OGP, they make a product called Smart Scopes. I started in that division, and last October, it's been about a year now, Ken recruited me into the Vue division.

SPEAKER_11: 56:40

Okay. So you they're using metrology in more industrial applications in the machining industry? Yes. And so how do you find the shift into the semiconductor space, the microelectronics space?

SPEAKER_01: 56:53

I am amazed at how micro these parts are and these features are. You know, compared to machined parts, for instance, uh razor blades, compared to semiconductor chips. I'm I'm just amazed.

SPEAKER_11: 57:07

It's cool, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 57:08

It just blows my mind. Every day I learn something new.

SPEAKER_11: 57:11

Right, yeah. And Ken, how about you?

SPEAKER_08: 57:14

Number of years in the uh dimensional metrology, that's where OGP comes from. Took a 15-year break, actually started in 1989 as a young engineer.

SPEAKER_11: 57:24

Where did you go to school?

SPEAKER_08: 57:25

Geneseum. It's in New York State, it's a state school.

SPEAKER_11: 57:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_08: 57:29

It's one of the best state schools, actually. Right. So and I came back in 2000. I did 15 years of embedded imaging consulting. And in 2010, came back to work for the owners. Okay. So now I'm kind of a utility executive with a strong technical background, and I've had different roles within the organization: CIO, you know, Go Help Service, those sorts of things. And then when the CHIPSAT hit, they wanted to grow Vue in the States, in North America, and Europe. And what do we do to replicate what we already have in Asia? You know, 75-80% of our machines were sold into Asia directly into the semiconductor industry. We want to replicate that into the states. And that's where we started uh Vue Micrometrology Center of Excellence out of Rochester, which is where all the machines are manufactured.

SPEAKER_11: 58:22

So how long has Vue itself been established?

SPEAKER_08: 58:25

Established maybe about 40 years ago. Okay. Quality Vision purchased them in late 1990s. And so we incorporated that tech. They were from Simi Valley. We moved that to Tempe, Arizona.

SPEAKER_02: 58:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_08: 58:38

And over the years incorporated their technology and our technology together.

SPEAKER_11: 58:43

So you've been in packaging for a while. We have. But this is your first time at IMAPS.

SPEAKER_01: 58:48

Yes. First time exhibiting.

SPEAKER_11: 58:51

Okay. So you've been here as an attendee or presenter before?

SPEAKER_01: 58:54

I came to DPC in the U.S.

SPEAKER_11: 58:57

So what made you decide that this was the right market for you?

SPEAKER_01: 59:02

Just that it's focused on packaging. The people that attended DPC are extremely knowledgeable people. They're involved in the processes that we can do metrology in. And I'm just impressed with the IMAPS organization overall. It's a small community, very tight, very professional. So coming from the pharmaceutical industry, I'd like to be in small communities like that.

SPEAKER_11: 59:28

What did you think of the show this week?

SPEAKER_01: 59:30

I've had a great time in the booth. We've met so many people, had so many quality conversations. One of my goals coming here as a marketer was to say, do we actually have a market? And the answer is yes.

SPEAKER_11: 59:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 59:44

People are interested in our products, and so I'm very pleased. It's been a great show for us.

SPEAKER_11: 59:49

So you actually had a tool in the booth. What were you showcasing to people?

SPEAKER_01: 59:54

That's uh one of our small benchmark systems. It's running just a very simple demo showing. Multiple parts that we can run metrology applications on. It's not really representative of our mainstream products, it's more of a show system.

SPEAKER_11: 1:00:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:08

It displays our optics. The power of our products are in the optics. It's the same optics in all the systems that we make. And uh the optics have a number of different features. For instance, we do high-speed strobing, so our systems offer really high throughput as well as high accuracy. Our optics are fully telecentric in the full field of view, so there's literally no distortion. And you can snap images and capture many more features than other systems we're competing against.

SPEAKER_11: 1:00:39

So are they intended for the RD side of things or manufacturing? Volume manufacturing?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:44

They can certainly be used in RD. However, our core strength is throughput, speed, okay, and accuracy combined. So our systems are running in Asia 24-7 in many companies.

SPEAKER_11: 1:00:57

For the metrology, what are you measuring? Are you measuring materials? Are you measuring whole devices?

SPEAKER_08: 1:01:04

Well to simplify mostly uh dyes, studs and dies, and chiplets. So we want to know the location and the orientation of dies, whether that's on a 200 millimeter, 300 millimeter, or uh panel, large panel, 600 or 700 millimeter panels. And because of the makeup of our machines, you can measure those dies accurately over 800 millimeters anywhere on the stage and of course anywhere within the field of view.

SPEAKER_11: 1:01:30

So the stage can support different wafer sizes and different panel sizes. Awesome.

SPEAKER_08: 1:01:37

Here we'd like to see what we've done a lot of wirebonding, one of kind of things over the years, and with the fast advancing of packaging and whatnot were one of our tasks. What other areas could we exploit with our existing technology that we really didn't think about before, coming from dimensional metrology and machining. That's where the heart of our business. We're in our 80th year of business.

SPEAKER_11: 1:02:03

Wow. That's older than the semiconductor industry.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:06

Oh, yeah. Started in the machining industry in 1945.

SPEAKER_11: 1:02:11

So let me ask you you mentioned that part of your motivation of getting into this industry was to build up your business here in the United States because of CHIPS Act funding.

SPEAKER_08: 1:02:21

It was more or less to exploit that, to see what we could do to expand the overall business. We represent 10% of the business for Quality Vision International. That's the manufacturer offices in a 7.2 acres in Rochester, New York, all hand built machines. 90% of our machines are vertically integrated, all the way from making the optics, all the machining, all the electronics, the mathematics, and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_11: 1:02:47

So you're seeing the recipients of Chips Act funding as potential customers?

SPEAKER_08: 1:02:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_11: 1:02:51

Right. Have the recent events that have changed whether or not Chipsact funding is going to be dispersed impacted your business at all?

SPEAKER_08: 1:03:00

No. No. These are long things. You're going to put a factory and it's not done over a weekend. So you're going to make a multi-year commitment for those sorts of things. You may pause it, you may do those sorts of things, but interesting, it's the same companies in Asia that are building out into Europe, into North America. Yes.

SPEAKER_11: 1:03:20

Well, it's a global industry, right? Of course. And that's, I think, one of the things that I've always found cool about the semiconductor industry is that it requires collaboration across borders and across, you know, nations. And that one of my concerns is how in the last few years there has been this shift, everybody wants to build out their own ecosystem to try to get market share as a country as opposed to a company, right? If China builds out its ecosystem and the US builds out its ecosystem and Europe builds out eco its ecosystem, is there going to be so much competition that one region is going to win out over the other?

SPEAKER_08: 1:03:56

I don't see it that way. You know, the fabric of a lot of these international companies, they're spread out all over the place. A company isn't gonna unroot everything they got in China and Taiwan, or they're gonna plop it in Arizona and say, okay, we're gonna all live here. That's not gonna happen. We're gonna have a little bit here, a little bit here, a little bit here. It's much cheaper to localize some of that manufacturing, anyways. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:21

Right.

SPEAKER_08: 1:04:21

And of course, most of the workers, right? Most of that stuff's done in Taiwan. Why? Because you have to find the workers that are capable of even working within those industries for these kinds of uh in the semiconductor, OSAT or otherwise. So I don't really share the view that everything's gonna go back as if the world doesn't exist anymore. It's a very, very small world. In the last hour we talked to people from, you know, Korea, right here in IMAPS.

SPEAKER_11: 1:04:48

Right.

SPEAKER_08: 1:04:48

Right, right. Korea, Japanese.

SPEAKER_11: 1:04:49

Oh yeah, well that's what I mean. This is a global industry, and it and it does best when it stays global.

SPEAKER_08: 1:04:54

We do business in China.

SPEAKER_11: 1:04:55

Right.

SPEAKER_08: 1:04:56

Right? We're doing business in Malaysia, yeah, Vietnam.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:00

Some of our customers in the US are from Asia.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:04

So they're still operating in Asia and now they're establishing operations over here, so it's a cross full global project. So I completely agree.

SPEAKER_11: 1:05:16

So busy week this week. Next week we're all at Semicon West. You'll be there. We'll see you there. And uh thanks for joining me today, guys. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:25

Thank you for having us watching.

SPEAKER_11: 1:05:30

That wraps up this year's coverage of the IMAP Symposium, but don't go away. Next week we'll be back with coverage from Semicon West and a discussion on a national workforce development initiative and a recap of semi sustainability content from the show. There's lots more to come, so tune in next time to the 3D Insights podcast. The 3D Insights Podcast is a production of 3D Insights LLC.