3D InCites Podcast
3D InCites Podcast
3D InCites Members Reveal Breakthrough Technologies at ECTC 2025
The 75th anniversary celebration of ECTC in Dallas showcases a remarkable evolution in advanced packaging technologies, revealing how semiconductor priorities have dramatically shifted. Rather than the relentless miniaturization of the smartphone era, today's AI-driven applications demand larger packages with more functionality and sophisticated thermal management solutions.
Glass core substrates emerged as the star technology of the conference, with standing-room-only sessions demonstrating the industry's intense interest in this promising material platform. The excitement is justified – glass offers superior dimensional stability and enables higher-density interconnects than traditional organic substrates. Meanwhile, co-packaged optics generated similar enthusiasm as engineers tackle the monumental challenge of powering AI server racks that consume between 0.5-1 megawatt each, making energy efficiency a critical concern.
Through conversations with industry leaders including Monita Pau (Onto Innovation), Charles Lee and Mark Gerber (ASE), Tim Olson (Deca), Scott Sikorski (IBM), Roland Rettenmeier, (SCHMID Group), Simon McElrea (LDQX), Henan Zhang, (ACM Research), and
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This episode of the 3D Insights podcast is sponsored by the IEEE Electronic Component Technology Conference, Organized by the IEEE Electronics Packaging Society. Ectc brings together the best in packaging components and microelectronics systems, science, technology and education in an environment of cooperation and technical exchange. Learn more at ECTCnet. Hi there, I'm Francoise von Trapp, and this is the 3D Insights Podcast.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone, this week we are recording live from ECTC 2025 in Dallas and it's the 75th anniversary of this event, and there are more than 25 members exhibiting and presenting from 3D Insights, so we've asked some of them to join us on the podcast to talk about what ECTC has meant to their companies over the years and then to learn about what's going on at their companies. So first to join me is Monita Pau of Onto Innovation. Welcome to the podcast, Monita. Thanks for inviting me, Francoise. Now, of course, you've been on the podcast before a couple times. Yeah, In fact, I think we had one episode where you talked a lot about hybrid bonding and that's kind of went exploding off the charts as one of the best listened to from ECTC. Yeah, exactly, but if people haven't listened before, can you just give us a little background your role in the industry and at Ontu?
Speaker 3:So maybe I'll give a brief introduction of Ontu Innovation first. So we are an equipment supplier with expertise in inspection and metrology on both front-end of line activities as well as back-end packaging, but we also participate in lithography for advanced packaging as well. So my role at Onto Innovation is strategic marketing, so I'm responsible for helping set the strategy for the company, particularly for targeting the advanced packaging in market.
Speaker 1:Okay, so now we were talking a little bit before we got on the mics about your experience at ECTC. So when was the first time you attended ECTC? Where was it? Can you remember where it happened?
Speaker 3:Yes, so the first time when I attended ECTC is probably about nine years ago and it was in Vegas. So I think nobody can forget having ECTC in Vegas.
Speaker 1:No, I think I was there yeah. Yeah, that was when they were at the Cosmopolitan yes, exactly Interesting place to have a bunch of engineers and then, like scantily clad guests on their way to the pool. That's what I remember.
Speaker 3:The pool was on the other side of the conference center Exactly. You are all ready to go to work, but in the elevator there are some people who just finished partying or, in their flip-flops, ready to go party some more.
Speaker 1:They've discontinued the Vegas location. But now we're here in the heart of Dallas, Texas, in this giant conference center. I got 8,000 steps in yesterday and I didn't even work out. So how do you think ECTC has evolved over the years since you've been part of it?
Speaker 3:So definitely a whole lot more people. And also when I first joined it's a little bit overwhelming in a sense because there are so many parallel tracks of technical information presentation, just keeping track of which talk you want to go to throughout the day and going from conference room to a conference room. It's overwhelming. But I think over the years I can definitely see the planning has improved significantly.
Speaker 3:It's much easier for an attendee to go from one place to another place, and I think the committee also provide a lot of information right to the attendees as well, helping them to navigate through the conference, because there are a lot of things to learn Right, and if you plan it ahead of time, then definitely you're going to get a lot of valuable insight from just attending the talks, as well as networking with all the other attendees. And, of course, then there's the exhibit hall, right, right, and I believe that has also gone bigger as well, it has.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so one of the things that I've always thought about ECTC is you know I attend IMAPS events, I attend SEMI events. Always thought about ECTC is. You know I tend to IMAPS events, I tend semi events, and where ECTC fits in that technology development area, I find that if you want to learn about what's being researched and developed, you come to ECTC. If you want to learn about what's being commercialized, you go to semi, and if you want to learn somewhere in the middle, that's where kind of IMAPS falls in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree with that and actually I've been a strong proponent for people I work with to come to join this conference. Whether you want to learn about advanced packaging or you're already really deep into it and you want to know what is the latest that's going to come, I think this is a great venue to actually get those kind of information.
Speaker 1:I think when I was first starting, I always thought that something I would see here would suddenly be in, you know, high volume manufacturing in like the next year. And I've now learned over the years that what you see here, it could be 10 years or more, if it even makes it. So this is really. I mean, maybe even earlier on would be like maybe IEDM, but this is really where we're learning about what is coming. But you were on a panel yesterday and it was what? High density, ultra high density technology, technology. Okay, can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:So for that panel we're looking at what are the challenges for ultra high density interconnect, whether the supply chain is ready and also what kind of application product are driving the need for this.
Speaker 3:So I think the panelists, including myself, share our view, including myself, share our view. So I think that goes hand in hand to other discussion in here as well is there is a constant drive for increased performance and interconnect density and bandwidth. So we're more looking into is the supply chain ready? We understand there's a demand for it, but is the supply chain ready to support it? And I think that it's not just looking at line and space, right, because I think the industry has been also talking about what can enable high density interconnect so you can print it, but what about the substrate or the carrier or the form factor you're trying to have this kind of interconnect on? So all these things go hand in hand. It goes from material are the material properties suitable for that kind of thermal behavior? And then whether the equipment, processing equipment, can actually do the lithography, to do the patterning as well as plating it with high reliability.
Speaker 1:Okay, Yep, so now you participated as a panelist in that. Did you have any other papers this week from Onto Innovation being presented?
Speaker 3:in that? Did you have any other papers this week from Onto Innovation being presented? From Onto Innovation? Actually, one of our my colleague is actually presenting, as of now on, our lithography solution targeting panel-level fan-out not panel-level fan-out, panel-level packaging, as well as advanced IC substrate.
Speaker 1:Right and I think sometimes people confuse. We talked so much about fan-out panel level packaging in the beginning that I don't know if we've explained that all sorts of wafer level packaging are now being looked at in a panel approach right because it started out being fan out that was thought to be panelized, so like, can you talk a little bit about what's driving the push to panel and the work that you're doing? Size, because we can see that, because we want to improve the performance and put more memory to support the logic die functioning.
Speaker 3:We are actually making the packages bigger and bigger and also the drive for co-package optics as well, that's also another driver for large package. So it makes more sense now to consider, instead of doing packaging on a wafer level form, what if we move it to a panel level form with much higher area utilization versus a circular wafer Right?
Speaker 1:right. It's so funny because I've been in this industry long enough to have watched packages get smaller and smaller and smaller, and thinner, and thinner and thinner, and then stacked, and even though they're stacked, they're not really that high, because they're stacking with thin dye right, that was a smartphone driver, right. And now that AI is a big driver and we need these larger package sizes, suddenly the packages just have been expanding over the years. I'd love to see like, maybe like a time lapse of the different package formats and structures as the years went on.
Speaker 3:You're exactly right, because previously it was form factor for mobile. Everything has to be small, thin so that we can fit it into the mobile device. But right now, performance is key and I think there's more room for bigger packages as well. Right for those applications.
Speaker 1:So how does a company like Onto Innovation adapt to those changing market drivers?
Speaker 3:So we have been involved in panel level applications, actually even before this sudden search of demand.
Speaker 3:Okay, because we have our inspection metrology system developed for a panel level application, as well as our lithography, so I think we are definitely seeing it coming. That's why we're ready and that also tied back into your previous question our application center of excellence in our headquarters in Wilmington. So we see that collaboration across the whole ecosystem is important and that's why we have invested in setting up the packaging application center of excellence at Wilmington to support our customer as well as the supply chain player as well, so that we can accelerate the development of technology and help the industry to adopt panel level application much faster.
Speaker 1:And actually I visited the PACE Center last October and if you want to see what's going on there, the coverage is on 3D Insights and we actually had a whole podcast devoted to what was happening there. So since then, how have things progressed?
Speaker 3:So we have a lot of collaboration projects that are ongoing, both requests from some customers and our customers, as well as the supply chain collaborators as well. But one of the key things we're seeing is ultra high density interconnect. We have a lot of engagement in that sense, as well as glass core substrate. I think glass core substrate has been, I would say, probably the buzzword in this current conference. Oh yeah, I mean, I guess there probably the buzzword in this current conference room.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean, I guess there was a session yesterday that was overflowing.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I couldn't even get in and I was standing by the door and, yeah, it was amazing and I wish they had have set that up in a much larger conference room, because I think that is the hot topic right now.
Speaker 1:Well, it's so funny though, because every year, thinking back right, I remember I have pictures of the overflowing rooms. Unfortunately, I wasn't here yet when that was happening, so I didn't get that photograph of people standing in the hallway. But there was the year where it was fan out panel level packaging. I remember being in San Diego, everybody falling into the hallway. Hybrid bonding has been another one, and these continue to be really hot topics, but there's always like the darling, and I think this year the glass core versus RDL was one, and I'm guessing co-packaged optics was pretty full yesterday.
Speaker 1:And I bet you, next year that's going to be the one that's dumping into the hallway. That's my prediction.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think there are a lot of activities along that side right now. We're definitely seeing customers are going to adopt it much sooner, right, okay?
Speaker 1:Well, it's been great talking to you, as always. Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 3:Thanks for inviting me here joining me.
Speaker 1:Thanks for inviting me here. So my next guests are Charles Lee and Mark Gerber of ASE, and ASE is a platinum sponsor of ECTC 2025. Welcome to the podcast, guys.
Speaker 5:Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:So ASE is pretty much all over the place this week, and here we are the 75th anniversary of ECTC. Do you guys remember your first ECTC?
Speaker 2:Gosh. For me it was probably in the early 2000s. I don't remember the exact first one, but it's been a while.
Speaker 1:It's been a while, and were you at AAC at the time?
Speaker 2:No, no, at that time I was probably at Motorola, okay, nxp today.
Speaker 1:Yep, right okay.
Speaker 5:And Charles. So for me this was a long time ago. My first ECTC was in 1995. Oh wow, and that was in Las Vegas. And so this year it will be my 30th year with ECTC.
Speaker 1:So how has it evolved and changed since those early days?
Speaker 5:Well, definitely the size.
Speaker 1:The size, the dynamics and also the topics, and so you know, this year there's been a lot going on, a lot of discussion about AI and about reducing energy and, mark, I know earlier this week you were on a panel on co-packaged optics and how co-packaged optics is going to potentially help the AI energy issue. So can you talk a little bit about that panel and some of the key takeaways and what ASC has in that space?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So the panel specifically was around materials and the importance of different materials in the package optic space. Back to your point about power. So when you look at today, the cloud compute basically comprises of both the server side and the processing side. For the AIML there's a huge challenge on both the thermal side due to power and how to manage this, and the package plays a very key component into the overall picture of this. Yeah, so the module side we're moving from the pluggable modules to kind of the next generation on both bandwidth and power. There's a need for a solution, and so Copac Adoptix kind of fills that space. So the discussion was around you know what are the challenges with Copac Adoptix and how are the materials playing such a key role in providing different solutions? To be able to scale that the switch from the module side as I mentioned, the pluggable over to CPO.
Speaker 1:It's measured in a picogil per bit type of metric that tells you kind of the benefit, and so for each of these solutions, the main thing that you're going to find is the components are being placed closer together in the solution, and that's again what Copack Adoptics is bringing the components closer together to get a better performance metric out of it I was in that panel discussion and one of the things I was found interesting and maybe you can talk about this a little bit is that one of the panelists called for standardization of co-packaged optics technologies or processes, and I always felt like this is really what the secret sauce is for a company, and I understand why some companies need it to be interoperable and that standardization helps with that, but how do companies like ASE feel about that, when this is really what differentiates you from your competitors?
Speaker 2:This has been one challenge for many years for the photonics area, because the photonics die is custom pretty much to every customer. So the way that they lay that out it's not always easy to package in the same way because they're all different.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:So the idea is there's something what we call an optical engine that contains several components that are key to the overall system, and if we can define some level of standards of how the dye needs to be laid out for both test and other areas for integration, then this provides at least a stepping stone into the area where we might have some consistency in the industry, and that's one area, and test will be covered, of course, in that and other areas, which is really important, I see.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what are ASC's offerings in co-packaged optics? Because that was a big announcement earlier this year, right, I think in April? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so back in, actually 2023, we made an announcement on a POP package-on-package and it actually was the introduction to the optical engine integration. And then, as you mentioned, last quarter we made an announcement on a CPO that was an 8 plus 1, eight optical engines plus the ASIC to kind of show the way that this roadmap and structure is moving forward. So, yeah, I think when it comes to the package side, there are many variations because, again, customers are doing things a little different and there's different performance metrics, but we're definitely seeing a roadmap being formed on both those sides the optical engine side and the CPO side.
Speaker 1:Okay, Now, Charles, there was some other big news from ASC this week on your Focus Bridge technology and that there's been an enhancement to that. So can you both talk a little bit about what Focus Bridge is and what the enhancements will be and why we had to do?
Speaker 2:them. I'll just start out and then Charles can talk about some of the enhancements. The Focus Bridge it's an advanced high-density fan-out solution that allows for embedding or the integration of other components. Traditional Focus the Focus platform.
Speaker 1:It's a fan-out chip on substrate, that's correct Fan-out chip on substrate.
Speaker 2:So basically what it is is it's a fan out. Integration of the die Could be, you know, it could be an HBM with the processor, could be a couple network die that gets split up. There's different ways, but it allows the integration of that. And then that's packaged with again some essentially fab based technology that allows you then to integrate that onto a substrate like a single chip. And that's the focus. So the variation of the focus bridge is that integration layer in the fan out allows you to embed. So basically we're moving more in the vertical direction and so that integration really opens up a whole nother level of performance for different applications. So the announcement this week I'll let Charles talk about, but essentially that's kind of the basic package.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so what's new with the Focus Bridge?
Speaker 5:So what is new in this press release, which is following our first announcement, is that this time we have integrated TSV into the Bridge Die, TSV into the bridge die, and with this advantage of the shorter path we are able to then enhance the power delivery and also for the lateral connectivity to get the higher bandwidth that is needed for the next generation AI and HPC requirements.
Speaker 1:So the bridge is an embedded die and is it a certain functionality, functionality like, is it an embedded memory or is it a logic? I mean, what's the bridge? And then you're using a through silicon via to shorten the interconnect. So is it a stacked package?
Speaker 5:So, essentially, the bridge is nothing but interconnection die, okay, and so, in this particular case, we have a true vertical interconnection, like a true silicon via, and so this will take care of the direct access between the bottom and the top die and, as well as this, will shorten the connectivity path between the inter-die interconnections.
Speaker 1:And so what is the target application for this technology?
Speaker 5:We foresee this application will be very useful in AI power data centers, where you need to have a lot of computing power as well as a fast bandwidth.
Speaker 1:Right. And then the shorter interconnect makes it so that to achieve that, it needs less power to transmit the signal.
Speaker 5:I mean basically it has proven that it will reduce our resistance by more than 72% and also the inductance by 50% and we have shown potentially this can improve the power loss reduction by three times.
Speaker 2:And, just to add, one of the key things about this announcement that's really unique is that when you look at solutions today where you have a bridge between the high bandwidth memory and the ASIC or the processor in this case, it's going to be more geared towards the GPU side, or the processor, in this case, it's going to be more geared towards the GPU side. That direct connection is one of the main reasons why you can have reduced number of layers of RDL, which again, from a cost standpoint, is better. But with this announcement, with the through silicon via on the bridge, now you're not losing space where you can have a power feed through. Now you're not losing space where you can have a power feed-through, which is again, from both power delivery and law standpoint, it provides a much better solution. So it's a balance between not having to use a full 2.5 large silicon interposer versus these again small bridge chips that provide essentially the same type of features. So it's exciting news for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, excellent. Well, congratulations on that. It's been a busy week for ASA all around. Keep saying you had the lunch presentation, you were involved in the panel and there were some other papers presented.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had Lee Hung was also on a panel, and we have CP Hung as well, and we have several different papers that were also presented this week actually a couple today so a lot of good things going on. You know, ASC is all over the board when it comes to different types of technology and moving the industry forward, so it's been an exciting week.
Speaker 1:We'll keep watching and we're excited to see what's next, and thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 5:Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:So I am speaking with Tim Olson from DECA and Scott Sikorsky from IBM. They've had some big news this week here at ECTC, so we're just going to dive in. But before we get started, guys, can you each just tell a little bit about yourselves and your role at your companies? Tim, why don't you?
Speaker 6:Sure, I'm Tim Olson, founder and CEO of DECA Technologies. We're now a 15-year-old company and excited to be working in the world of advanced packaging 15.
Speaker 1:They grow up so fast.
Speaker 7:And I'm Scott Sikorski. I have responsibility for global business development in the chiplet and advanced packaging area for IBM.
Speaker 1:Okay, and IBM's way older than 15.
Speaker 7:About 115. There we go.
Speaker 1:Okay, speaking of years, we're at the 75th ECTC, so I was trying to remember when my first ECTC was, because I can't remember if I came first when I was with Advanced Packaging. I know that I have been coming ever since 3D Insights, so that would be 2009. When was your first ECTC?
Speaker 6:Very similar, I think in that same time frame, and it was at the Dolphin and Swan at the.
Speaker 1:Walt Disney.
Speaker 6:World. I love that venue. Oh, I don't. You didn't like it.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't. There was one night where I went into my hotel room and I heard drip, drip, drip, drip, drip and there was water dripping on my pillow from the ceiling above and they had to shift my room no. I was not a fan. I'm glad we're not there anymore, but anyhow, and Scott, when was your first one?
Speaker 7:Probably even a little earlier than that actually. So I'm a lifetime packaging guy, including my undergraduate and graduate work.
Speaker 1:So you were at ECTC way before you were even at IBM.
Speaker 7:I've always been at IBM. I've always been at IBM.
Speaker 1:You've always been at.
Speaker 7:IBM. Yeah, so I did my graduate work, went to IBM, was there 20 years, went to Stats and the OSAT world for 10 years and then came back.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there was that. There was a gap. So there was 10 years where you were at ECTC with a different company. Correct, right.
Speaker 7:So how has ECTC evolved, do you think, from then till now? Oh, tremendously. I mean, it's gone from being a relatively modest conference to being the centerpiece in the world for packaging in terms of gathering the global community Coming into this role. It was a very easy discussion within IBM to be platinum sponsor, and all of our key original papers in packaging are done here, without exception actually. So it's a very important venue for us to see what's happening in the packaging world and for networking.
Speaker 1:Right 2,500 people this year. That's like another record Every year. They keep breaking it. Right. So I guess we were all right about packaging and how important it is Maybe lucky.
Speaker 6:I think we're smart, I know.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about your big news. What's the announcement that DECA and IBM shared this week?
Speaker 6:So we have entered into a TTLA, a technology transfer and license agreement with IBM, and we're super excited about it. It's clear to everyone in the world that IBM has this storied history in advanced packaging and advanced technology in general.
Speaker 6:We've been working with IBM already for over a year and we've met all the key people in the factory sense as well as in the R&D sense, and I'd say there's several dozen amazing technical talents at IBM that are going to help implement our technology in the Bromont factory. And then what we're really excited about is IBM will be building future capabilities on top of the foundation that we bring. So we've announced this new relationship.
Speaker 1:So this is all happening in Bromont.
Speaker 7:Yes.
Speaker 1:Why there?
Speaker 7:Just to take a step back before we get into why there, why IBM is doing this anywhere. So, if you look at IBM, really a key focus for us now is to help lead our clients on their AI journey. So we're very, very focused on AI, and the unique perspective we're bringing to our clients is full stack. So what do we mean by full stack? So that's everything from the top layer software, where we have our Watson X, all the way down to what should the next generation transistor look like in terms of our Albany Nano Center and being the first to two nanometer gate all around, et cetera. What we found, though, is to really optimize AI workloads.
Speaker 7:The packaging piece has become really critical, and IBM has a long history, as Tim said, in packaging, but as we look at AI moving towards chiplet architectures and you look at the standards that that's driving, whether it be related to HBM or UCIE, very quickly you find that the packaging is the critical bottleneck and you need a horizontal interconnect fabric. And then we look at well, what are the options? Today you have silicon interposer. We know that's running out of steam in terms of physical scaling as well as other constraints, and as we looked at the market and we could develop something ourselves. Time to market is very critical. Ai is moving incredibly fast. You see what's happening with large language models, with generative AI and again, we're looking at this through the perspective of our clients, the major companies across the world, and we've got to move fast. So time to market is important and you know, we felt that leveraging the many years of experience and the fact that this technology that DECA has is in the market and I personally have looked at this for 10 years, maybe you know through different lenses, 10 years, maybe you know through different lenses and felt like this is the best opportunity to bring a very high quality state of the art, moving towards leadership product to our end clients. So that's why we did it and, as Tim said, we spent well over a year pressure testing the technology with our best technologists across IBM Research and our infrastructure group.
Speaker 7:Me being convinced is one thing, convincing IBM corporations a different thing. So Tim was, I would say, grilled pretty heavily and it was very patient with us and in the end, it was clear that this is the path we should take Now. Bromont has been IBM's center of competency for first-level packaging for 50 years. We've got a very large facility, 850,000 square feet. We've got a very seasoned workforce approaching 1,000 people, with an average of 20 years tenure. It was a very easy decision to say that this really is the place because we want to scale it. This is not a prototyping facility. We want to do mass production in a secure North American flow for, you know, largely American clients and that's you know. It fits into our Northeast Corridor.
Speaker 7:The last time I had the pleasure of being with you was to talk about the Northeast Corridor and why that is important and this really puts an exclamation point on that in terms of the capability that we're bringing to our clients in the corridor.
Speaker 1:We're talking about DECA's technology. You have many technologies. This technology transfer license agreement is for the M-series technology also with adaptive patterning and everything that goes with it.
Speaker 6:Yes.
Speaker 1:So M-sereries was not your flagship product, it was the second product, right, or it is your flagship?
Speaker 6:It's always been the flagship. We started the factory running conventional wafer-level packaging to prove our company as another capable, high-quality, short cycle time, good value supplier. But we did that only for that purpose to create a business. But in the initial founding of DECA my goal in the end was to create the world's best fan-out technology.
Speaker 6:I had some experience in my past roles at Amcor and other opportunities, so we created and launched the M-Series fan-out in 2013, so it's over 10 years old. Created and launched the M-series fan-out in 2013, so it's over 10 years old. And it really hit the big time in the 2017-2018 time frame because Qualcomm adopted the technology in a big way. They invested in DECA. They asked us to teach ASE in Taiwan how to build it. So we did our first TTLA with ASE in Kaohsiung and today ASE continues to run very, very high volume of the technology. It is the highest volume fan out technology today in the industry over 7 billion devices. If you have a latest iPhone, latest Samsung phone, you definitely have a handful or more parts in there with the DECA M-series technology wrapped around them.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so you have license agreements with a bunch of different companies that are manufacturing Skywater is also on that and you've got IBM and you've got ASC. So it's no wonder that it's one of the most high-volume products on the market today. Is there any like issues with competing companies licensing the technology?
Speaker 6:Well, obviously we'd like every company to have their own unique value, and I think IBM clearly has the greatest differentiated value of anyone else. Today they are going to be coming up with the most advanced version of our technology that has not yet gone to production, which is the M-Fit, which is a very high-end interposer using the M-Series platform, and so IBM will be helping us take off the rough edges in the end of development to bring that into high volume. So we're very much looking forward to that help and that will position IBM, I'd say at least a number of years ahead of anyone else. So we're excited that they have that business opportunity. We're really excited about them helping and making the technology robust and high volume for the highest technology packaging applications in the world.
Speaker 1:So MFIT F-I-T stands for.
Speaker 6:M-series fan-out interposer technology.
Speaker 1:Fan-out interposer technology. Fan-out interposer technology. Are we using organic interposers?
Speaker 6:It's an interposer itself, so it may or may not have a substrate. Typically we'll have an advanced build-up substrate underneath it, but not always. But in the interposer sense that's how it works. And the interposer is the M-series, it's the molded organic, and when you say organic people think substrate or PCB. But mold compound structures are also organic. So, this is a organic interposer built from the M-Series fan-out.
Speaker 7:Yeah, with RDL, fine-pitched RDL.
Speaker 1:And so this is an exclusive with IBM's, the only one who's going to be building the MFIT.
Speaker 6:For now, yes.
Speaker 1:From IBM's perspective. Do you already have clients interested in that series?
Speaker 7:Yeah, this is a big undertaking. As Tim said, it's not proven in the market. Hence we did the very extensive pressure test technically, with a lot of input from IBM Research. We think one of the reasons why we have a good chance of being a success is, as Tim said, the company DECA has quite a bit of experience with foundational technology that's in the market today. This definitely takes it to a whole different level in the market today, this definitely takes it to a whole different level and we think, with the expertise we have in IBM research, that you know, we really have a good opportunity to differentiate a solution to our end clients. And, as he said, you know this is basically an interposer, so the die will sit on top of this and it creates a very attractive horizontal integration fabric for those die to talk to each other. So is this a chiplet structure? Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:So when we hear about different companies have their different terms for their interposer technology on a chiplet, it's all some sort of fabric.
Speaker 7:Correct.
Speaker 1:It's an interconnect fabric, so there's active components in the interposer.
Speaker 7:Not necessarily Not that we rule that out in the future, but the active components are on top. That creates kind of a data superhighway that you can't do in a base substrate at this point, and so that's really the advantage of the interposer.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how long do you think it's going to take to bring this up to production?
Speaker 7:Yeah, great question. So we've already started the work. Obviously you need a dedicated cleanroom environment. We've got space at IBM Bromont that we're now retrofitting to have the appropriate cleanroom environment. So that work has started. We're in the final, late phases of tool selection. Essentially, we'll be bringing in tools next year, bring up the process late 26, early 27, and we intend to be ready for production in late 27.
Speaker 1:And the tools are the secret sauce still for.
Speaker 6:DECA. They're part of it.
Speaker 1:I mean because I've never had you actually name. You know, when you started off with DECA, it was very much part of the secret sauce, because it's panel-level packaging before everybody else was starting to do panel. And it had been technology that was formerly used in solar right.
Speaker 6:A few pieces, yeah.
Speaker 1:So has that changed.
Speaker 6:No, there's still a few process steps that actually were born of SunPower, one of the number leading solar companies in the world, back then.
Speaker 6:So the equipment is part of the secret sauce and the reason we treat that very confidentially is it's a tremendous amount of development to get the machines to run the various formats, from different size silicon wafers to the plastic panel wafers and, in the future, of course, square and large square things. So yeah, so one interesting thing about the equipment set, the DECA. There's multiple suppliers involved and in most process steps there's at least a couple suppliers that we've developed that can produce the capability. But if you look at what happened with our first implementation at ASE, through our process we basically have the suppliers remove all their IDs from the tool. They paint the tools either a certain off-white color or they're stainless steel. So when you walk in any factory with that kind of technology you will not know where the machines came from, including ASE, who has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these machines. We keep that confidential because equipment suppliers are a source of folks pulling trade secrets and other know-how.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was wondering if that was still the case. So you're building up a clean room with DECA-authorized tool sets that would be different from anywhere else in your clean room Correct. Or if they're not different, we don't know it because they're white-labeled.
Speaker 7:Also correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, do they all say DECA on them?
Speaker 6:No, no, no. So DECA is not an equipment company and we don't want to be. We want to provide advanced packaging technology and, as mentioned, equipment is a key part. But there's materials, there's processes there's design systems, design rules.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 6:So it's a whole integrated solution. But without the equipment, of course, it can't be produced. So the equipment is what is a key piece.
Speaker 1:All right, well, is there anything else that you want to add?
Speaker 7:I think we've covered the key points.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we'll be watching, and super excited for you guys and you know, just keep talking about this.
Speaker 7:Yeah, stay tuned for future announcements. That's all I can say.
Speaker 1:Okay, thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker 4:Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:So my next guest is Roland Rittenmeyer, now with Schmidt Group, and he was previously with Evatech, so he's been on the podcast before, so why don't you update us on your new role and the companies that you're at?
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, thank you for having us, or having me, here today. My new role at Schmid is Chief Sales Officer, so I joined Schmid in early March as CSO. So Schmid is producing wet processing tools, but also plasma deposition and edge tools for panel-level packaging.
Speaker 1:So has it come from other industries? Was it in flat panel display or something like that?
Speaker 4:Schmid is about 160 plus years old and the roots of the company and the processes are basically printed circuit board and IC substrate manufacturing. The processes are basically printed circuit board and IC substrate manufacturing, but also in our company's history we did a lot of photovoltaic panel processing, so panel-level packaging is part of our DNA.
Speaker 1:All right, that makes sense. It's a good transition from photovoltaics into advanced packaging space.
Speaker 4:Yes, we do see now, let's say, pcb, ic substrate, blending in also glass, glass core with organic buildups, so we can benefit from our process technology in glass processing, whether that's cleaning or etching of the glass or metalizing glass as such, plus our huge experience in PCB and IC substrate, where we handle organic load, where we handle organic buildups, where we do the different processes of any kind, horizontal or vertical, for different kinds of applications.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're here at ECTC. It's the 75th anniversary, so in honor of that, I'm asking everybody when was the first time you were at ECTC?
Speaker 4:It is years back, I presume it's about 10 years back and it was in San Diego. I remember that. And first time, ectc I mean. You see, for me it was very impressive seeing ECTC as the lead conference for advanced packaging on the planet. I would say there is no such event like ECTC. The insights you gain in so many different fields, from photonic application to packaging application, is phenomenal. It's even for one person joining ECTC it's not enough. You need to be at least three, four people to cover the interest. And for me ECTC is the lead conference. So I was introducing this to Schmidt Group and now my colleague Dian Chang and I are here to scout, even for next year's even exhibition, handing in papers, participating also by contributing next year, so it was your first time here with Evatech.
Speaker 4:My first time here was with Evatech. That was San Diego.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you were there with Evatech before, so now you're here with Schmidt, and this is their first.
Speaker 4:It's the first time for Schmidt to engage with ECTC. We are three people now here Our local sales is joining and, as I said, my colleague Deon and I from the C-Level team and, yes, I think we are already confident right now that we want to do more next year.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So why did you choose ECTC to introduce Schmidt to the industry?
Speaker 4:Well, ECTC is the meet and greet of the advanced packaging industry. There is some private platforms evolving. There are some semi-events evolving. We are already participating in the Semicon shows, exhibiting there or contributing to that.
Speaker 1:How about?
Speaker 4:IMAPS. Imaps is also evolving very nicely and this is another event we will contribute and show up, but ECTC is still the leading conference.
Speaker 1:Especially for developing technologies. It's kind of the pre-competitive research space where you really learn about what's up and coming.
Speaker 4:Schmid in some cases is a pretty disclosed company, so we develop a lot of things but we do not really talk about it in public. We have a lot of know-how and developments done for Glasgow substrates with organic buildups and this is to be published soon and we will hand in paper then, especially with this focus, most likely for next year's ECTC.
Speaker 1:So have you attended some of the sessions here?
Speaker 4:Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what are you hearing as far as some of the key takeaways from this year's event, maybe in comparison with previous years that you've been to?
Speaker 4:Well, we have already seen in previous years that co-packaged optics and optical signal transfer will be a major functionality the industry needs in the future. I was amazed how much power is put into a server rack of AI computing. We talk about 0.5 to 1 megawatt electrical power for one server rack and then you need to move the bits and bytes from one rack to the other, from one CPU to the other CPU. So co-packaged optics, optical signal transition, will be one of the key things that will move the packaging industry in the future.
Speaker 1:And that will help reduce the power consumption of the AI chips.
Speaker 4:For certain distances, yes, so the shorter distances, I think, will still remain on copper, but for longer distances you will need the fiber then to take over the functionality of the signal transfer.
Speaker 1:I can see that. So that's taking the signal off from one package to another.
Speaker 4:then yes, even so yes, Even on package-to-package or server-to-server communication.
Speaker 1:Right, right, Because within the package you're going to want the copper, Do you see? Don't see optical interconnects within the package.
Speaker 4:Well, there is different approaches and different beliefs in that. I think that the optical transfer makes sense from a certain length of transfer. So we talk about several centimeters. Several millimeters might still remain on copper lines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what can we expect to see from Schmid next year, here and just in the future in general? As you break into this space, what's going to be your core competency?
Speaker 4:Our core competence is clearly in the panel level packaging field, so Schmid is not doing anything on wafer scale. So we are a panel level packaging company by our DNA, by our history, so you can expect a state-of-the-art panel level packaging technology on wet processes, but also dry processes like sputter depositions, sputter edge deep rectifier on edge in vacuum, a very, very novel approach for glass core buildups, like a damascene process for glass core and ABF buildup. So we have a very novel approach here, or an IP-protected approach here for embedded traces, as we call it. So it's an infinity board, gives you infinite possibilities for horizontal and vertical interconnects.
Speaker 1:Any other equipment company I know in this space that is developing panel level tools and processes started out in the wafer but from what I'm hearing from you, Schmidt has always been focused on panel level.
Speaker 4:Yes, that's right. So our equipment is designed for panels since years. We have never touched the wafer space, but so are others like when we look into the material. Let's pick anjinomoto fine techno right right they, they are solely coming. They're mainly coming from ic substrate business they're very limited footprint in wafer. Also, when you look at some plating companies, let's pick SensuScore, let's pick Atotec they're also basically evolving from PCB IC substrate into the pen-level packaging space.
Speaker 1:I see okay, orbotec maybe, which is now part of.
Speaker 4:KLA right, okay.
Speaker 1:So any company that started in the PCB space is just having to develop finer-tuned processes to match what's needed in the advanced packaging space. Because it's a lot of the same. I remember going to visit a PCB company and realizing that all of the terminology, all of the technology was the same. Realizing that all of the terminology, all of the technology was the same. It just was at a different aspect ratio or higher. They were talking millimeters instead of microns.
Speaker 4:Precisely In the PCB or in the IC substrate industry, you have a kind of let's call it a pyramid. On the lower end you have the price battle, where you have the commodity products it's multi-layer, it's simpler products or more simple products and you have the performance battle on the very top notch of the of the ic substrate, pcb, advanced packaging panel level. Packaging products talk about miniaturization in terms of line space, going towards five micron, two micron space, talking about higher aspect ratio through glass, via glass core being part of the panel. So this is kind of if you are an innovative company, if you are a company which is based in Europe, based in equipment maker, based in Europe, based in the US, you have to push for the higher end, you have to push for the performance battle. You will never win the prize battle.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, it was great to have you stop by and we look forward to speaking with you next time.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much, Frances.
Speaker 1:So Simon McElroy.
Speaker 10:Howdy ma'am.
Speaker 1:It's always good to see you.
Speaker 10:Good to see you again.
Speaker 1:Here we are again, and it was the last time we podcasted together on well, we did an exclusive.
Speaker 10:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:But then last year ECTC.
Speaker 10:We did.
Speaker 1:We introduced Liquidics to the world.
Speaker 10:Yes, we did. Liquidics was about a month old, I think at the time.
Speaker 1:Well, the new brand? Yeah, and we talked about interconnectology. So here we are at the 75th ECTC.
Speaker 10:Amazing.
Speaker 1:And one of the things I've been asking people this week is when was your first ECTC?
Speaker 10:I think pre-millennial, but let's just say 25 years ago.
Speaker 1:So out of the 75, you've been here for a third of them.
Speaker 10:On and off, but mostly because I've been in and out of the industry. Oh, that's, true, so I get these snapshots about every few years.
Speaker 9:That's kind of cool.
Speaker 10:Yeah, it is interesting to see because I mean gosh talk about exponential growth in every part technically and people and just interest. It's just huge.
Speaker 1:Do you think this is a testament not just to the conference, but but to the fact that advanced packaging is really it's a rising star? It has been.
Speaker 10:I think it's 100% to it. Why? Because you know, even 10 years ago, those of us that were out banging the drum for packaging we weren't so much banging the drum because it's what we did we could foresee that it was going to be the bottleneck, so we hoped that the big semis would show up and you know, we're looking at their banners all over the place right now. Um, and now they're here because it's a pain point and but it's. It just lifts the level of the conversations hugely right, so let's talk about liquid metal ink again we talked about it last year, but I think people always need to be reminded.
Speaker 1:You know, you listen to so much in the middle and maybe they didn't catch it last year. So let's just briefly talk about what it is that Liquidix provides. What's the solution?
Speaker 10:Okay, well, we call it PVD in a bottle, because it's basically atomic metalization of any substrate you can think of, from FR4, printed circuit board materials to Teflon, to advanced substrates, to all the way today to glass glass substrates and what we do is our solution is in a bottle, it's an ink, it's a bottle. It's an ink, it's a liquid. The two classic ways to metalize are vacuum processing, dry processing, which is extremely expensive, as used in the semiconductor industry, or plating. Plating is used in printed circuit boards, substrates, etc. Which is pretty much 100% aqueous or water-based. The challenge with water is it's just one solvent and most of the substrates are hydrophobic. They hate water.
Speaker 10:You spend a lot of your time putting in additives and trying to change the fundamentals of the chemistry to make the chemistry work. Plating chemistries are ubiquitously aqueous, so water-based chemistries and all the substrate materials are typically water-repelling or hydrophobic. So part of the game is to make the metallization chemistry work, you have to add all these additives. We approach it from using an organic solvent or a mix of organic solvents, so it just opens up an infinite number of possibilities of different solutions you can use to stick to different substrates. So, for example, when we apply metal to ABF. We don't have to use harsh desmears, we don't have to do all these preparation steps to make the water-based chemistry stick. Same with glass we can just create a chemistry that adheres directly to and tailor it to the substrate. So we don't try to remove glass, we don't try to etch glass, we just stick to the glass. So we just concentrate on that.
Speaker 1:So there's no etching to create the traces.
Speaker 10:You don't have to roughen the surface. There's so much work that gets done in order to accommodate either PVD, for example, or aqueous-based plating chemistries, just because that's the traditional way of doing things. However, in other industries, for example just taking glass as an example organics and glass are prevalent throughout, for example, contact lenses. They're treated with organic solvents, but in the semiconductor industry, it's a conservative industry. As you know, there are ways of doing things. So you know, the challenge for any startup and I love startups is you do have to disrupt.
Speaker 6:Right.
Speaker 10:And disrupting a conservative industry is more difficult, Right, but once you hit a big pain point and that's why we have a huge group of people here and a focus on the next generation, which is glass then you really start to get attention, and that's where we're getting our attention.
Speaker 1:There was a plenary session on glass, I think the first day, and apparently I mean I wasn't here yet, but it was out into the hallway. So if you have a solution for an application that has some challenges that you can solve Now I had not heard this before from you about you're basically just depositing straight onto the glass. So we're talking about like you're doing PVD for like a whole well, for like trace, is it patterning? You're doing PVD for like a whole well, for like trays, is it patterning?
Speaker 10:Well, the first step of metallization for glass is let's say, you want to ship a glass core with TGVs, a sea of TGVs, but that should be metallized. It should be electrolysis copper on the surfaces and on the surfaces of the vias To do that. Today, some of the proposed solutions, some of the equipment that's being tested, is like a 20-step process where you start by preparing the glass. Things don't stick to glass, naturally.
Speaker 1:That's why we drink out of glasses.
Speaker 10:It doesn't you know, nothing will penetrate the glass. So you have to roughen the glass, you have to treat the glass to allow anything to stick and then, typically, you have a series of adhesion promoters, things that are borrowed from the decorative glass industry. People have been putting you know, the Italians were doing, the Romans were doing, but there are much simpler ways to do things. So if you just design your chemistry, your metal chemistry, to be adhesive to glass, then you can skip 19 out of 20 steps. And you can also do it using the same process you would use for a printed circuit board you dip a panel in a tank, bring it out and that's it Dry it.
Speaker 1:So how much disruption is there in the sense of putting other processes out of business?
Speaker 10:well, the other processes aren't in business yet, but the proposed solutions are very expensive and multiple steps and multiple different technologies in the same equipment. So the thing about this industry the technologies that get adopted are the ones that they can be disruptive, but they do have to fit the process flow or the equipment set. So you know, for example, if you have the kind of chemistry that goes into a like a lamb saber tool, then it's so much easier to get that adopted. Or if it's a tank in a system that already has 12 tanks because you're doing other processes it's.
Speaker 10:it's so much easier, so we do have to design it to be integrated, which we have.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 10:Otherwise you've got to take it out and put it in a vacuum system and do PVD Right. For example, trying to do physical vapor deposition of palladium and copper in a really deep glass via and they're trying to get the 20 to 1 aspect ratio is impossible.
Speaker 1:Right, you're not going to get a conformal coating, you're going to get, like, built up in the end. It's a line of sight.
Speaker 10:You're literally shooting the atoms and trying to hit the sidewalls right, and you've got a 1 to 2 degree taper on the sidewalls. So what we do is we just immerse it. It's very wetting. It immediately wets. The reaction just takes place atomically in a liquid phase as opposed to vacuum, which means that the only trick you've got to play is you've got to make sure that the chemistry gets to all the surfaces Right. So it has to be really wetting.
Speaker 1:Right, okay.
Speaker 10:And then you just let the reaction happen for a few minutes. So our challenge as a business is always startups have a hard time in this industry. I went to the startup competition last night and it's great that it's being run and Rosalia and Farhang are going to run it every year. I think there are very few and it's very hard for them to break in. So you see them sort of heading towards the software side, the AI of finite element, or towards metrology. That's where you're seeing the startups. It's really quite hard to just break into equipment process chemistries.
Speaker 1:Right, so you're providing the chemistries, so are you looking for equipment partners to work with?
Speaker 10:Yes, we do work with equipment partners, but we're constantly looking for and trying to work with the biggest.
Speaker 1:So what brought you here as an exhibitor to ECTC this year?
Speaker 10:Well, it's the center of the universe for the industry. Now, right, and so the great thing is now the equipment, semi-equipment folks are exhibiting. They are hunting for new tech. You know, most of our meetings are with people at the top of the supply chain or at the right part of the supply chain. It used to be that you would have to go to multiple shows. Right, you'd go to Semicon for that, right? Yeah, now you can actually find everybody, from the basic materials to the, you know, to the top of the food chain driving the whole market, which is why this is such a well-attended show.
Speaker 1:I always think about and I've said this before, that will probably pop up in other areas of this episode that I always find that ECTC is where all of the pre-competitive research is being presented. Where all of the pre-competitive research is being presented, the potential processes. We might not see these enter the market for another 10 years, not in the exhibit hall right but in the sessions it's all very deeply technical content.
Speaker 6:It is.
Speaker 1:And then if you go to because you mentioned other events then IMAPS is a little bit further towards commercialization of technology and then Semi is really where it's a smaller group yeah, Semi is sort of it's more of a traditional trade show. It's like I'm selling my stuff I have. I mean, they have content right, but the focus there is to be on the trade show floor.
Speaker 10:Yeah, this is. I mean, a lot of people call this a trade show, but it's really a technology. It's a technology conference. And what's really interesting to me, I mean just sitting here with you and staring at some of these posters. 10, 15 years ago, we used to draw pictures of these advanced packaging technologies and, you know, people quite often laughed. It was, you know, the island of misfit toys of packaging. It was like we'll put this one under this one and this one. You know, the island of misfit toys of packaging. It was like we'll put this one under this one and this one. And now they are actually production products because it was the only way to get there.
Speaker 1:Right, so isn't it fun to be right.
Speaker 10:Yes, How's that for an answer? Well, yeah, and you know, the good thing is there were very smart people Just coming back to your point about it can be 10 years away people that have commercialized it. Weren't the people coming up with the ideas 10, 15 years ago? Because, quite frankly, when you're in a big company, you're not really incentivized to take an enormous amount of risk, so the risk is usually being taken outside of the company and then it gets adopted.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, as always, for joining me, and we'll talk to you next time. It's wonderful to see you again.
Speaker 10:Thanks.
Speaker 1:So my next guest today is Hanan Zhang from ACM Research. Welcome to the podcast, Hanan.
Speaker 8:Thank you.
Speaker 1:So now, this is the first time we've ever met, and the first time you've been on the podcast, so can you just give us a little of your background and your role at ACM Research?
Speaker 8:Right. Hi everyone. My name is Hanan. My background is I was a cleaning guy in the past 15 years. After school in New York, I started my first job at Intel, working in Portland. Then I'm working for a few equipment companies and now I'm the general manager for ACM Research. I'm responsible for cleaning and plating business and focusing US and Europe. So where are you based? I'm working from home. I'm based in New York for cleaning and the plating business and focusing on the US and Europe.
Speaker 1:So where are you based?
Speaker 8:I'm working from home and based in New York.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I think there's a lot of ACM's team is spread out, but I know there's a physical facility in Oregon.
Speaker 8:ACM research. The headquarter is based at a Fremont, california.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 8:Right, but our biggest operational office is based at Fremont, california. Okay, but our biggest operational office is based at Hillsborough.
Speaker 1:Oregon.
Speaker 8:But we are growing the team and, starting from this year, we have engineers based at Florida and also we are hiring more people based at Phoenix, arizona.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is the 75th ECTC conference right, yes. So I've been asking people you know, when was your first ECTC?
Speaker 8:This is my first ECTC. This is your first ECTC. Well, before we continue the topic, let's congratulate the 75th anniversary for ECTC.
Speaker 1:That's a long time right.
Speaker 8:It is, it is.
Speaker 1:That's actually longer than the transistor has been. I believe, so Right.
Speaker 8:It's a really fascinating experience for me, since this is my first time. So I see a lot of great presentations in the customers and potential customers, so it's productive.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's great. So this is really big this year, and I can tell you that it hasn't always been this big. I see, but it just is a testament to the importance of advanced packaging in this microelectronic space that we're in. Exactly, and I know that ACM has just been tipping its toe and getting into advanced packaging in the past few years. Its origins were in front-end processing.
Speaker 8:Right, you're right.
Speaker 1:But it's really growing in the advanced packaging space.
Speaker 8:It is really growing. So ACM research was focused on wafer-level packaging and more recently we developed our business in panel-level packaging. So we have three products doing panel-level at a different panel size and we believe they are the technical solutions for the customers, especially they are in the AI packaging industry.
Speaker 1:Right, especially AI, which is becoming a larger-sized package.
Speaker 8:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Then it used to be what was driving the packaging industry the small form factor for smartphones.
Speaker 8:Right.
Speaker 1:And now that AI is a big driver, I'm seeing that the packages are getting bigger again with more and more functionality on them, and so now we're going into the panel space.
Speaker 8:Exactly. This is where our engineering team will concentrate on Right right.
Speaker 1:So ACM just had a really big milestone of its own. I saw pictures on LinkedIn. I think you just celebrated your 20th anniversary.
Speaker 8:Yes, it's the 20th anniversary of ACM Research Shanghai.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's talk about some of you know. You just had your Q1 earnings report. So, how are things going for?
Speaker 8:you. I think this is another very strong quarter for ACM Research and we have revenue for $172 million. It's 13% year-to-year growth and we forecast in 2025 that revenue will be between $850 million to $950 million.
Speaker 1:Do you know how much of that is going to be driven by the advanced packaging space?
Speaker 8:I don't really know. So about 75% of revenue is by cleaning, 15% is by plating and 9-10% is the revenue from packaging.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what are some of the milestones that you have accomplished?
Speaker 8:We have several milestones this year, so one thing we want to highlight first is our high-temperature SPM single wafer tools. So our high-temperature SPM single wafer tools has been qualified by a key device customers in China and we developed a patent nozzle. The nozzle can reduce the acid mist.
Speaker 1:So what does SPM stand for?
Speaker 8:SPM stands for sulfuric acid peroxide mix. Once the two chemicals mix together, it has a strong acid. You have to have an exhaust control.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 8:So that's something we focus on. Okay, and we have a patent novel can deliver the chemicals. At the same time, the tool has really high availability and good particle control and very low maintenance. So far, we deliver the system to 13 customers already.
Speaker 1:Okay, great, any other milestones?
Speaker 8:Another milestone is relevant to 3D Insights. We won the 3D Insights Technology.
Speaker 1:Award. You did.
Speaker 8:Yes, so because our focus on the packaging, we have a platform called ECP AP Tools. It's doing the copper and other metal depositions. We believe that's the first commercial available tools. Who is going to introduce the wafer horizontally?
Speaker 1:Okay, oh yeah, all right, yeah, instead of vertically.
Speaker 8:Right, you're right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And we believe our system can help our customers to address their technical challenge. That will be contributed to the packaging society greatly in the future.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so let's talk about. You mentioned Hillsborough, Oregon.
Speaker 8:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I believe that there's been expansion there. Right, so can you talk a little bit about your Oregon facility.
Speaker 8:Right, definitely. So we decided to continue to invest in the US, particularly in Hillsborough area. So we purchased a facility I believe it's 40,000 square feet with a 5,200 square feet of clean room. So our executive team, they decided to bring our R&D and demonstration capability to the US and also including onshore initial manufacturing, to better support our US customers and eventually support our global customers.
Speaker 1:Okay, so up until now most of the manufacturing and R&D has happened in China.
Speaker 8:Up to now, most of the R&D and manufacturing happened in China or happened in Korea In.
Speaker 1:Korea. Okay, all right, and so now, what's the motivation to bring it to the US?
Speaker 8:I think we want to engage very closely with the US customers, so we think the more we can engage with customers, the better we can co-develop and collaborate on the project.
Speaker 1:And if you're actually building the tools here and your customers are here, it makes sense to be the shipping it's going to reduce the amount of distance that the tools have to be traveling.
Speaker 8:Exactly right, I think. From strategic level, this decision is very customer oriented.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, all right, well, so what's next for you this week? What are you focusing on in some of the sessions that you're attending?
Speaker 8:This is a very good question. I'm very looking forward to more technical exchanges with my customers to better understand what they need and what we can offer and help the team to explore more opportunities, because we have the solution already and we want to customize our product for our customers depending on what they need. So I just want to hear from customers, receive the feedback and then work closely with them.
Speaker 1:So, beyond ECTC, when people listen to this, how can they find you?
Speaker 8:They can find me by checking our ACM Research link in, or they can find me by checking our ACM research link in, or they can find me by email.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I can put links to that in our show notes.
Speaker 8:Are you on LinkedIn? Yeah, linkedin is working, so we'll connect to you on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, thanks so much for joining me today.
Speaker 8:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:So my next guest is Evelyn Wang from ERS Electronic, one of our premium members. Welcome to the podcast, Evelyn.
Speaker 9:Thank you.
Speaker 1:So you are brand new to the company.
Speaker 9:Yes, I just joined in March.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how do you like it so far?
Speaker 9:I like it. I like the role. It's challenging and a lot to learn, but it's an interesting role.
Speaker 1:So where are you based?
Speaker 9:I'm based in Taiwanwan, but I might be relocated to germany in the future.
Speaker 1:Oh, that wouldn't be terrible. Germany is a nice place and I love germany, so have you been to to visit?
Speaker 9:yes, and it is always my dream to work in germany, actually. Oh well, there you go yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, here we are at ectc. It's the 75th anniversary and I've been asking everyone when was your first ECTC?
Speaker 9:This year is my first ECTC. That's amazing. It's really impressive to see so many people from the industry around the world gathering here.
Speaker 1:And it's all about advanced packaging.
Speaker 9:Oh yeah, it's very focused.
Speaker 1:So in your previous roles you didn't have the opportunity to come here, no.
Speaker 9:I started to work in the industry as the sales account manager, okay, but I was based in Taiwan. So, I mainly deal with the Taiwanese customer and that is my territory. Okay, and by the time, only many management or marketing. They will have more opportunities to go abroad to attend the conferences and so on.
Speaker 1:So where were you before ERS then?
Speaker 9:I was with EOS Engineering. Okay, it's an American-based company, right, they're actually a member of 3D Insights as well. Yes, I saw that.
Speaker 1:So what was your role there?
Speaker 9:I was also the product manager in EOS Engineering. Okay, but based in Taiwan, always Based in Taiwan, but I travel back and forth a lot because my customers at yield engineering are most in America.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what is your background then?
Speaker 9:I'm actually the business marketing background. I don't have the technical background.
Speaker 1:Well, neither do I. This is great. We don't have to talk about technology at all.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's good.
Speaker 1:What brought you into the semiconductor industry, then what interested you about it?
Speaker 9:I think that is the coincidence. I joined Merck after I finished my master's Okay, and it was the coincidence to join Merck. And then I started to take care of the materials for optical electronics and the semiconductor. And then semiconductor gets more interest and attractions around the world, so I keep my careers in this industry.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. So you've learned a lot then, I would imagine, since you've been.
Speaker 9:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know if you started with Merck, or do we have to say Merck KGAA Darmstadt, germany? Yes, german company, so you're based in Taiwan, but you're potentially going to be relocating. Yes, can you talk about that?
Speaker 9:Well, when I had the interview with the general manager at Merck, he told me well, only management team has opportunity to go to Germany. But I still have some hope that I can visit there one day. But I stayed in Merck for like seven years, eight years. I didn't get any chance to visit Germany at all.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, well, now you have, yeah, now.
Speaker 9:I've been to our headquarter in Gammachin and also our factory in Babing already. We have really good colleagues there.
Speaker 1:So have you been to any of the presentations since you've been here this week?
Speaker 9:oh yeah, I went to the session introducing the advanced, advanced packaging because I think semiconductor is a big, big, big industry and they cut so many fragmented pieces so it is hard to get the overview for the whole processes and the technology and give me the good chance to recap and relearn the whole process.
Speaker 1:So was that one of the professional development courses.
Speaker 9:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know, that's how I started learning about this industry. I remember my very, very first. This is way back in 2005. And I went to IMAPS and I did a professional development course in Wirebond. I went to IMAPS and I did a professional development course in Wirebond and it turned out to be a very good introductory as just packaging, but it got me into the understanding about why packaging is important and what the processes are and just kind of at a high level and it's helpful.
Speaker 9:It helps a lot and since then, well for a for a semiconductor is too many pieces so you are only familiar with what you are doing right but that give you the overviews from what others are doing as well so what has been your favorite part of the conference so far?
Speaker 9:networking is good and the courses are good and the. The thing I like most is the focus, because people come from here. They're from more or less similar background, looking for the solutions for advanced packaging, so we more or less have the similar language and similar target to work for this industry.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it was great for them to send you to this, especially if you're just learning about the advanced packaging sector. You've been involved in the semiconductor side of things when you were at Merck, but this is really a little bit different and there's less standardization and there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 9:Yeah, especially now everybody's developing their own technology, so it's so different that you have too many things to learn.
Speaker 1:So now, what are you showcasing here in the exhibit hall this year?
Speaker 9:For ERS. We have thermal chalk system and also the machine for debonding, including the next generation photonic debonding we call it photothermal debonding and also some warpage correction and warpage measurement system. These are critical machines for advanced packaging in the future because we see in the industry many of the customers are facing such problem and we are offering the solutions for the customers to make their process more smooth and increase their yield.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you.
Speaker 9:Thank you for inviting me. Thank you so much for joining me today. It was nice to meet you. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1:That's a wrap on ECTC 2025, the 75th anniversary edition. We hope you enjoyed it and we'll be taking a break for a few weeks and then be back with an all-new episode featuring an interview with ASE's Yin Chang. Stay tuned there's lots more to come, so tune in next time to the 3D Insights Podcast. No-transcript.