3D InCites Podcast
3D InCites Podcast
ECTC at 75: Pioneers Reflect on Packaging's Past and Future
What happens when you gather 75 years of packaging innovation under one roof? The Electronic Component Technology Conference (ECTC) has transformed from a modest gathering of 300 electronics professionals to a powerhouse event attracting over 2,500 industry leaders, researchers, and visionaries. This remarkable journey reflects how advanced packaging has evolved from supporting technology to the driving force behind modern electronics.
In this special episode, we speak with three generations of ECTC committee members: Pat Thompson (with 41 years of ECTC experience), Przemek Gromala (10 years), and Florian Herault (since 2010). They share fascinating insights into how the conference has tracked—and often predicted—the industry's most significant shifts. From the days when Ball Grid Arrays were cutting-edge to today's excitement around hybrid bonding and chiplets, ECTC has been the barometer for packaging innovation.
The conversation reveals how technologies that once caused standing-room-only excitement have either become industry standards or faded into obscurity. Remember 450mm wafers? That path was abandoned in favor of panel-level packaging. Through-silicon vias struggled with cost issues for years before finding their sweet spot in high-performance applications. And the longstanding debate between System-on-Chip and System-in-Package approaches has evolved into today's heterogeneous integration paradigm.
Looking forward, our guests highlight the challenges driving tomorrow's innovations: thermal management for power-hungry AI chips, specialized edge computing architectures, and adapting advanced electronics to automotive and other harsh environments. As Host Françoise von Trapp observes, "It's a great time to be a nerd," with abundant technical challenges ensuring exciting work for packaging professionals for decades to come.
Don't miss our upcoming episode featuring ECTC keynote speaker Sam Naffziger discussing responsible AI implementation and the critical role of packaging in creating energy-efficient high-performance devices!
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This episode of the 3D InCites podcast is sponsored by the IEEE Electronic Component Technology Conference, organized by the IEEE Electronics Packaging Society. Ectc brings together the best in packaging components and microelectronics systems, science, technology and education in an environment of cooperation and technical exchange. Learn more at Ectcnet. Hi there, I'm Francoise von Trapp and this is the 3D Insights Podcast.
Françoise von Trapp:Hi everyone, this year at the Electronics Component Technology Conference, or ECTC, we're celebrating 75 years of advanced packaging technology and excellence and we're here to provide some history about the event, the impact it's had on the course of advanced packaging. I'm speaking with Florian Haro, pat Thompson, , all from the ECTC committee, and they also all have day jobs, so welcome to the podcast guys.
Florian Herrault:Thank you.
Pat Thompson :Thanks for having us.
Françoise von Trapp:So this is the most loaded panel I've had today on the podcast with three speakers. So let's just take a minute. If you could each say your name again and what your role is at ECTC and where you also work for your day jobs. I'll start down with Florian.
Florian Herrault:Okay, good afternoon. My name is Florian Herrault I am the general chair of ECTC 2025., so mostly in charge of pretty much everything, and then my day job is a of a company called PseudolythIC. We are a startup in Santa Barbara, california, and we develop RF chips.
Françoise von Trapp:Okay, and Pat.
Pat Thompson :Hi, I'm Pat Thompson. I'm the finance chair for ECTC. I also serve on one of our technical committees the interactive presentations. I passed general chair in 2006 and for my day job, I lead a package technology team at Texas Instruments.
Françoise von Trapp:Okay, and Przemek.
Przemek Gromala:Thank you very much. My name is Przemek Gromala. I'm working at Robert Bosch in Germany being responsible for methods development, mainly for the simulation, and here at ECTC my role is to be a subcommittee member of thermal mechanical simulation and characterization, and this year I'm also responsible for the program of the ECTC as program chair.
Françoise von Trapp:So you were responsible for organizing this 75th iconic year.
Przemek Gromala:Yes, exactly.
Françoise von Trapp:So you came up with some interesting things to celebrate.
Florian Herrault:We have a lot of events. Yeah, not only did we increase our number of special sessions on Tuesday, we also invited 40 students from the local area to come and attend on Wednesday morning, watch the keynote meet with the keynote, go through the exhibition and the IP session.
Françoise von Trapp:That's always great to bring in the students, the next generation.
Florian Herrault:Folks from community colleges and high school would not have the opportunity to attend conferences like ECTC.
Françoise von Trapp:What was their reaction?
Florian Herrault:Amazing. Both them and their professors were really excited and I think they had a great time.
Françoise von Trapp:And Pat, you have a session that you are hosting tomorrow.
Pat Thompson :Yes, friday morning is the EPS President's Panel Session. I'm the EPS President and this year I picked a 75th ECTC theme, going back through history and looking forward. I have four speakers that have very luminous and long histories in the packaging industry and with ECTC, so it should be a fascinating session tomorrow.
Françoise von Trapp:I think that's really exciting. I mean, I've been asking people all week, as we've been doing interviews, when their first ECTC was. So I'm going to ask you each that question who has had the most ECTCs under their belt? That would be Pat.
Pat Thompson :That's right. So my first ECTC goes back to 1984.
Françoise von Trapp:Okay.
Pat Thompson :I was a Pretty new engineer at the time. My manager was a member of the Reliability Subcommittee at ECTC. He was too busy to attend and he said, Pat, please go in my place this year. So I did, and then he decided I should just carry it on. So that was my beginning. I was a member of the Reliability Subcommittee for many years and gradually worked myself into the executive committee, and I've been there since 2003.
Françoise von Trapp:So 1984, I have really bad math skills, but that's like 41 years. Yes, it is, they're not as bad as I thought. 41 years Okay, that's a good tenure. Have you ever missed one?
Pat Thompson :I missed one, 1998, because my daughter was born the week of ECTC.
Françoise von Trapp:How dare she?
Pat Thompson :Wow.
Françoise von Trapp:Couldn't you have just delayed it a week?
Pat Thompson :I talked to my wife about that, but it didn't work out. It didn't work out.
Françoise von Trapp:Wow, that's amazing. You've only missed one.
Pat Thompson :That's correct.
Françoise von Trapp:That's amazing. Okay, and , how about you?
Przemek Gromala:I mean, I attended first ECTC in 2016. Okay, and starting from then, I already signed myself, you know, to the subcommittee thermal mechanical simulation characterization. I was accepted. This was really great honor, yes, and since then I'm every year attending.
Françoise von Trapp:ECTC. So that's nine years, ten years, ten years. This is my tenth. Is it 2016? Yeah, 2025?.
Florian Herrault:Ten times. Nine, nine years, nine years, ten times, okay, okay.
Françoise von Trapp:So, you've got a little catching up to do here before you can be in.
Przemek Gromala:Yeah, of course Right.
Françoise von Trapp:But it is a huge commitment when you get into the committees. It's like a seven-year tenure right At least.
Florian Herrault:Of course, right, at least of course, pat. You've been doing it. You just keep re-signing up. You're like that. You're like the military. I don't know when to quit. Yeah, and florian, how about you? I think the first time was probably in 2010, um, and I joined the emerging technologies committee in 2015 or 2014, and since then I've been on the committee and have you missed? One. I have not missed one in the last 10 plus years.
Françoise von Trapp:Even COVID. I mean, we all missed COVID I attended.
Florian Herrault:I did miss what was supposed to be my very first one though Few people know this because my abstract was rejected. But I tried the next year again and then you got in and I got in and you've been committed, it's like a drug, isn't it?
Françoise von Trapp:So 2009 was when I started 3D Insights, and I have been trying to remember all day. If I came to ECTC before 3D Insights, when I was at Advanced Packaging, I'd have to go back. I honestly cannot remember which my first one was. I have been coming every year since 3D Insights started. They have been coming every year since 3D Insights started, and I think maybe the first one I went to was in San Diego.
Florian Herrault:Yeah, which.
Françoise von Trapp:I really liked the San Diego show. That was a good one. So how has it changed over the years? And I think, Pat, you win the prize of having been here the longest.
Pat Thompson :When I started, ectc was called the ECC, eps was called CHMT Components Hybrids in Manufacturing Technology. The conference was two and a half days long, with three parallel sessions.
Françoise von Trapp:Okay, and how many people? How many people in attendance?
Pat Thompson :I have no idea, but I would say in the range of 300, maybe 250, 300.
Françoise von Trapp:Okay, and now we're up to 2,500.
Pat Thompson :That's correct.
Françoise von Trapp:So obviously there've been changes since all of us started, and I've seen it grow In the last few years. It's really exploded Now. Is it because suddenly everybody figured out that Infest packaging is the place to be, or is it also a combination of the event itself really being so well regarded?
Florian Herrault:Yeah, I think the event has continued to grow along with industry and so you know, with new events, more exhibitors, so we've been able to keep up and therefore people come Second. I'd say we have stayed true to our core, which is strong technical content and strong networking, and I think people enjoy that.
Françoise von Trapp:Yes, I would say that they do. I really like that you've changed up the format a little bit. I think that you you know a lot of people spoke out. I'm sure everybody's putting in their surveys and it's nice to see that those get paid attention to, but that we've reduced the number of evening panels and moved them to tuesday right, but I think people like that networking that let down.
Florian Herrault:It's a lot of content we wanted to bring everybody in the same room to start the day. I think you see the attendance. It's really high and we are really excited. I think we'll have a great show tomorrow morning as well. And, yeah, in the evening people are ready to network and we have receptions and some private events and you know, get ready for the next day.
Françoise von Trapp:Shama, what have you seen change?
Przemek Gromala:I mean, I have to admit that for me, the quite significant change that I observed today is actually how we evolved over the past 10 years. I mean, I remember that when I joined the first time we were in the range of 600-700 people attending the conference. I mean, the difference between last year and this year is plus 500 people.
Françoise von Trapp:Right.
Przemek Gromala:Yeah, it's a really amazing change. I think this is mainly driven by a lot of interest and a lot of attention to electronics packaging, and I'm really happy that people really like to work in this hardware field, because quite many right now go towards software, but we are really the core of the hardware development. There is no software without hardware, and this is the place actually to be here at this conference and to meet all of the experts from the industry, all of the leaders, as well as academia and the future experts who are actually students right now and they will drive this industry in the next 20, 30, 40 years.
Françoise von Trapp:Can you imagine? What do you think it's going to be like in the next 20 or 30 years?
Florian Herrault:We're going to be asking our panel of legends tomorrow morning.
Françoise von Trapp:So what are some of the things that we have to look forward to in these conversations? I mean, if somebody's listening to this, obviously the panel will have already happened by the time this is out there. What are people going to hear tomorrow? And people who maybe are listening to this that didn't get to attend? What are some of the highlights?
Pat Thompson :Well, it's pretty hard to predict disruptive technology in the future, but certainly in the near term we're going to see increasing heterogeneous integration. We're going to see increasing density of function and capabilities in our packages. If you take a look at our emerging technologies today, those are going to be things that are implemented in the next five to 10 years.
Pat Thompson :So I expect that we'll see more flexible packaging, more packaging that's self-powered, and there'll be some other things that we don't have any idea of yet. But you can extrapolate looking at the presentations we're seeing now about artificial intelligence and data centers and energy efficiency there's going to be some significant improvements in the next decades on how we use the energy that's available for computing and operating our systems.
Françoise von Trapp:One of the things that I was talking with someone about today that it's not just making the AI chips themselves more energy efficient, but that we're going to have to also adjust the infrastructure, the energy grid, to accommodate this massive requirement for energy. Is that an area that we think about as an industry? What kind of impact we'd have on the power infrastructure?
Przemek Gromala:I mean the power consumption. What we observe actually, actually what we are able to hear in the past two days, will play definitely very important role and making the chips with the higher performance. It will be one of the major trend and solving the, let's say, thermal aspects will also be one of the major driver. But I would like also to bring another aspects which I consider will be also very important and probably will drive the development of those products which are presented over here in the next 20 years. This will be also highly automated autonomous system which will also requires, from one perspective, components. The performance will be also driven by low, let's say, thermal requirements. I mean, I'm thinking right now about such application like autonomous cars, when we will not be able to cool them with the same, let's say, efficiency as the big data centers. And another application which I also consider is a lot of sensor application, which also they are very, very tiny, tiny right now. They also require actually advanced packaging right and power.
Françoise von Trapp:Electronics is the third, let's say, group of the components which I also believe will require more and more, let's say better thermal solutions so, if we think back because, you know, one of the things I hear when I'm at ectc is the challenges that we're set, we are setting out to solve to enable the next generation of devices or whatever it is the next generation applications I mean what has to happen so that ai can really be fully adopted and implemented and I I think back what were we talking about like 10, 15, 20 years ago that, by virtue of this conference and the great minds that participate here, have we been able to solve? I mean, what do you think when you think about when you first started, what was a challenge that we don't hear about anymore because we've come up with a solution?
Florian Herrault:I mean through. Silicon VIA was sort of the hot topic back then, right.
Françoise von Trapp:And.
Florian Herrault:I think nowadays it's almost a commodity product to go 3D stacking.
Françoise von Trapp:Who would have thought right? I mean, there were times where we didn't think TSVs were going to happen.
Florian Herrault:That's right and the technology existed. The cost model didn't right Right. And so I think, nowadays you hear hybrid bonding, you hear you know, submicron die-stacking accuracy Really amazing.
Françoise von Trapp:So these have come from being developing technologies that had a lot of challenges to overcome, and now we're finally implementing them in real products.
Florian Herrault:That's right you know how.
Françoise von Trapp:Every year there's that one session that is overflowing into the hallway. So I can think of the year that sent out panel level packaging was everybody wanted to be in that room and I have a picture of people. Just I think I it was in, um, it was a san diego event. So what do you think that in your memory was that overflowing room that stands out to you?
Przemek Gromala:I bring you know the examples of this year. It was definitely hybrid bonding and I remember that I think two years ago it was also the panel, what was related to the hybrid bonding, and the people were standing also outside yep, yeah, I remember that one too, Florian.
Florian Herrault:I moved a few years back. I'd say chiplets.
Françoise von Trapp:Oh, okay, not that long ago yeah.
Florian Herrault:Maybe five years ago.
Françoise von Trapp:And what about Pat?
Pat Thompson :Well, you've got two good ones there.
Françoise von Trapp:Well, you can even go further back.
Pat Thompson :Oh, I can go way back. I mean, I was here when BGAs were brand new. Bgas were invented in the 80s. They were a novel product and so nobody even gives a thought to those anymore. And I can work through the decades. But I don't want to take up your whole spiel. But I think if we look at just multi-chip modules I was working on R&D and multi-chip modules in the 80s.
Françoise von Trapp:Okay.
Pat Thompson :They didn't happen really. I mean certain very niche applications.
Françoise von Trapp:Right.
Pat Thompson :Now we call it heterogeneous integration, but there are real applications.
Françoise von Trapp:Right right.
Pat Thompson :And by no means is that now settled. It's got a trajectory, but if I think about FanOut, six, seven years ago FanOut was new and novel and expensive. And how are we going to do that? And now, if you look at a dozen different HI packaging, it's just an integral part of it. It's not even the solution, it's just one piece of it. So you can find Fan-out wafers, fan-out panels everywhere you turn.
Françoise von Trapp:So this year I wasn't here on the first day. I was arriving on the first day and I was told that the room that was overflowing was the glass core substrate conversation. That's true, and I think there's more and more. There's also the co-packaged optics is huge. So what do we think is going to be, let's say, next couple of years? Are we going to see a lot of papers on, or a big focus on that? Everybody wants to get in that room.
Florian Herrault:I think we'll have to address the thermal management challenges. So eventually our sister conference item across the hall we'll have to share some of their knowledge with the community here they do already. But as we shrink and as we stack, the thermals will have to be addressed.
Françoise von Trapp:I think that's a really good point, do you think? I mean, I always I was thinking about this the other day and maybe it's the question that Jan always asks. Jan Vardaman always asks how are you going to get the heat out? And it was everything from way back when we were first talking about stacking 3D stacking. It always came down to thermal, but you never see that be the sexy everybody-want-to-get-in-the-room topic. But you think it's coming. I think it's coming Because everything is going to really be weighing heavy.
Pat Thompson :That's right. Well, if I think out what's going to be, if not mainstream, at least it's going to be integrated into the systems that we see at ECTC. Now I would say printed electronics are going to actually be practical for more than demonstration purposes somewhere in the next five to ten years.
Françoise von Trapp:ECTC is not just about advanced packaging, right?
Florian Herrault:No, we have an emerging technology subcommittee that focuses on MEMS packaging printed electronics, biosensors and so on.
Pat Thompson :I think what we have to do is understand that advanced packaging is not just one axis, it's not just high-performance computing, it's advanced in its area. So advanced power packaging, advanced flexible packaging and so on and so on. And so, while I don't see us printing high-performance computing modules, I do see us printing more electronics that are used for biological applications or very form-factor intensive applications, where the ability to build electronic systems that can mold to a space, maybe be flexible, is a word that's already used but, flexible in application such that it can be used in an environment where it's not practical to do today.
Françoise von Trapp:Right. So on the flip side, what's one technology that everybody thought was going to be that next new breakthrough that has kind of just faded, Not just become a commodity but just never really made it 450 millimeter packaging way first maybe yeah, that's a good one, that's true.
Florian Herrault:The scaling did not go beyond 300 millimeters at volume right, and they were developing 450 in the front end, correct.
Françoise von Trapp:And then all these companies invested. And then there was no way we could figure out or it wasn't going to be cost-effective really. Ah, I almost forget about.
Florian Herrault:And so they moved to panels for packaging. That's right, oh, that's a really good one.
Françoise von Trapp:I like that one Any others Because.
Pat Thompson :I've been around so long, I can think of things that tried and didn't work and tried and didn't work and now are used. And we've already addressed TSVs, right, right, I was on one team that developed TSVs for packaging 15 years ago. Technologically it worked Right, but it couldn't compete it 15 years ago.
Françoise von Trapp:Technologically it worked, but it couldn't compete. It wasn't cost effective. When I started 3D Insights it was all around through Silicon VIA technology and of course I'm not an engineer, so I didn't have the understanding that, just because something was technically viable and it seemed to be the solution, that just because it was more expensive Although I have to say that very early on, being a layperson and looking at all this and saying, but what about the system? It makes the packaging too expensive, but at the end of the day is the system cost going to go down? And lo and behold, we are now at that point where chiplets and all of the costly advanced packaging processes are now more cost-effective than doing a system on a chip.
Pat Thompson :And that's a great point. I worked for Motorola for many years and there was a battle SOC, sip Are you going to put everything on a chip, which was the Intel way to do things, or were we going to build things into a package and put them together faster? And that battle's gone up back and forth and back and forth. You don't actually hear that debate anymore because it's all of the above. They're big, we have big, huge chips that we still build, but we also put those in a system with many, many die so what about?
Françoise von Trapp:we've been talking about ai and how AI chips are really big right, and I'm thinking about they were talking about this morning AI on the edge. So if we're going to be taking those chips and putting them in a laptop or our phones, we're going to have to come back down again. Everything was small, you know smartphone. Everything was smaller, thinner, faster, cheaper but more powerful. And then now, when we're refocusing on high-performance computing and data centers, now suddenly we have these large-body AI chips again. So what happens when we have to take all of that functionality and performance and fit it in something smaller? Is that the next challenge? That we have to take all of that functionality and performance and fit it in something smaller? Is that the next challenge that we have to overcome? I?
Przemek Gromala:think definitely there is a challenge, and this strongly depends on the application, because when we think about automotive, we won't be able to put a big chip. We will need to have a smaller chip that can be built into the, let's say, electronic control units and it must also be cooled by the, let's say, cooling system that cannot be as large as in case of data centers. So of course we will need them. However, that application is definitely very, very specific, not only because of the cars that they have limited, let's say, volume, but also because of the harsh environment.
Przemek Gromala:I mean the cars are used all around the world and electronic control units are also developed for the entire world.
Françoise von Trapp:I mean, they're testing autonomous vehicles in Arizona, where I live, and there's Waymo which now drives around without anybody in them. And I think about what if you took that and put it in Minneapolis?
Przemek Gromala:let's think about Norway, about Sweden.
Françoise von Trapp:I think my point is there's still plenty of challenges for all of the engineers in this room all 2500 of them to to tackle, and I think it's called job security. I think it's a good place to be, an exciting place to be.
Pat Thompson :Well, your example of AI is a good one. Ai on the edge is not taking AI data centers and trying to put it in a little chip. It's applying the principle of AI, so it's going to be scaled where I could see, like in a let's talk about automotive where the sensors talk to each other and they don't need a central control. They have this AI feature and they can make decisions together on what activities need to be made. That's not predicting weather on a global scale like the AI and the data centers do but it's AI principles.
Pat Thompson :It's the ability to learn and adapt and operate independently. So I think AI on the edge means have we advanced the AI enough that we don't need a big box system, but that we can use the principles of AI in a different environment, not so controlled, not so benign, and AI on the edge could have an integrated power supply communication processing unit. Those are pretty cool challenges.
Françoise von Trapp:Right, so it's a great time to be a nerd.
Pat Thompson :Yes, absolutely Better than ever.
Françoise von Trapp:But who was it that said be nice to the nerds because you're going to be working for one of them someday? I think that was Bill Gates, perhaps. Well, I'm really grateful for all of you for joining me to have this fun conversation, and I hope people enjoy listening to it. So thanks again for joining me today.
Florian Herrault:Thank you very much for inviting us, thank you for having us, thank you.
Françoise von Trapp:Next time on the 3D Insights Podcast. We continue our coverage of ECTC 2025 with a chat with Sam Nafziger, this year's keynote speaker. We'll talk about the responsible implementation of AI and what AI manufacturers need from the advanced packaging community to help make these high-performance devices more energy efficient. There's lots more to come, so tune in next time to the 3D Insights podcast. The 3D Insights podcast is a production of 3D Insights LLC.