3D InCites Podcast
3D InCites Podcast
What's In Store for IMAPS DPC 2025: Featuring Amy Lujan, Tim Olson, and Jan Vardaman
Explore the transformative world of microelectronics packaging with industry visionaries Amy Lujan, Tim Olson, and Jan Vardaman as they share their journey at the IMAPS Annual Device Packaging Conference (DPC). With the conference relocating to the vast Wild Horse Pass, expect an enriched experience with expanded technical tracks and exhibitor opportunities reflecting the rising interest in this field. Get ready to embrace the future of packaging with insights that redefine its significance in the semiconductor industry.
Uncover the critical challenges facing AI infrastructure in a thought-provoking panel discussion with experts from IBM Research, Intel, and leading OSATs. We'll tackle whether today's infrastructure can keep pace with AI's explosive growth, especially concerning energy-efficient chip designs and packaging solutions. Learn about groundbreaking advancements and the potential to alleviate data center power consumption concerns through innovative packaging techniques. Beyond the tech talk, we'll highlight the vibrant networking scene at the conference, featuring events like the Backyard Olympics and a charity golf tournament, ensuring a perfect blend of professional growth and community building. Join us for a chance to network, learn, and potentially reshape the future of microelectronics packaging.
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This episode of the 3D InCites Podcast is sponsored by IMAPS, the premier global association for microelectronics advanced packaging enthusiasts. A membership in IMAPS helps your company grow its advanced packaging workforce through professional education and networking, advances your brand and supports building relationships. Imaps helps you learn, connect and collaborate. Learn more at imaps. org. Hi there, I'm Francoise von Trapp, and this is the 3D Insights Podcast.
Francoise von Trapp:If you've been listening to the 3D Insights podcast since we first started, you'll recognize some of the speakers on this week's episode. We've partnered with the International Microelectronics and Packaging Society for years and that's IMAP for short and as part of that, we dedicate many of our podcast episodes to coverage of their events focused on leading-edge advanced microelectronics packaging. The IMAPS Annual Device Packaging Conference, or DPC, is just a few weeks away, so to get you ready for it, we have talking with the people behind this year's event. We've got Amy Lujan, who is CEO of Savantsa Solution and is this year's general chair. We've got DECA Technologies CEO Tim Olson, who is co-general chair of IMAP's Global Business Council. And, lastly, we've got Jan Vardaman, who is on our technical advisory board and she is also the CEO and founder of TechSearch International and will be running as usual this year's panel discussion, so we got her to come and talk about that.
Francoise von Trapp:So welcome to the podcast everybody. Thank you, thank you. Before we dive into all of these different topic areas, can you just introduce yourselves briefly and explain about your roles at IMAPS? Amy, you want to start?
Amy Lujan:Yeah, Thank you for inviting me onto the podcast. So my role with IMAPS this year is general chair. But I actually began volunteering with IMAPS probably 10 years ago as a session chair and I slowly moved from session chair to track chair to general chair. Today, In this role in general, I'm helping to guide the overall theme of the conference. Lead the technical team in making decisions about our technical track. Lead the technical team in making decisions about our technical track Generally, just providing kind of consistent support and communication with the technical team.
Francoise von Trapp:Okay, and that's on top of your day job. We've talked about that a lot, about how everybody has a day job, and this is the volunteer part of your careers.
Tim Olson :Tim, how about you? Sure, I've been associated with IMAPS for a decade, I would say, and it's been as a presenter, it's been as an exhibitor with our company, DECA. We've been very active at DPC and at Symposium and other IMAPS events. And in the last couple of years I've become involved in the Global Business Council and just this year I was asked to be co-general chair of the GBC, which I'm very excited about. So we get to shape, obviously, the program for that, which we'll talk more about later, and the participants. So, yes, thank you.
Francoise von Trapp:Cool and Jan.
Jan Vardaman:I've been involved with IMAPS for more than 25 years and in various capacities, certainly attending a lot of conferences, and one of the things that I've been involved with most recently, say in the last 10 years or so, has been running these panel discussions at the various events. And I really enjoy running a panel discussion because I like to bring something very timely to the conference and to the gathering, to get people engaged in talking about some of the latest developments, trends or issues in our industry, and a lot of times we want that conversation. We want to start the conversation and then we want it to spill over into our discussions throughout the conference.
Francoise von Trapp:That panel is generally on the Tuesday night, right Correct, so that there's still Wednesday to have lots of conversation about what was happening. And I can attest to the fact that there have been some very lively conversations that come out during that panel and afterwards for sure. So Amy IMAX has grown so much that this year we needed to find a new location to host it. What's driving that growth?
Amy Lujan:You know, I think that growth has come because there's an increased recognition about how important packaging really is. The value of a device now is not just in the silicon. The chips being packaged certainly do carry a lot of value still, but the packaging technologies have also become a source of that value as well. Packaging is being asked to do more, to do better. That means everything from smaller packages with higher densities to increased energy efficiency, improved bandwidth the list really goes on, and so I think that's what's driven the growth of this conference is that recognition of how important packaging really has become.
Francoise von Trapp:Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, for so many years, I think, even the term packaging has started to starting to be not really accurate to describe what everybody does. You know, years ago when I first started in this industry, I was told that it was the important part of packaging, or the role of packaging was to protect the delicate chips for reliability purposes and so on. But so much of that has now evolved to being really the interconnect that's formed between when you package more than one chip into a device. I mean, Tim, your business has really been focused on not so much the packaging end right, but the interconnect.
Tim Olson :Very much so. In fact, in the early days we called ourselves Electronic Interconnect Foundry because we were hoping what's happening today would happen. So we're very happy that it has.
Francoise von Trapp:Oh, that's right, you did, I forgot about that. One of the original interconnectologists, so you know before we start talking about the keynotes. What about the new location? Do people need to know?
Amy Lujan:The new location is Wild Horse Pass. I have not been there yet myself, but I hear that it has a very similar feel to the Waco Resort that we were all, I think, very fond of. Having this bigger space has allowed us to do a couple of things. We will now have four technical tracks instead of three, so that means more content, more speakers. There's 18 more exhibit spaces, although even with that increased space, the exhibit hall sold out faster than ever anyway. And, last but not least, it is closer to the airport and I know that was really good.
Jan Vardaman:Yeah, it's a great location.
Amy Lujan:Yeah, it is closer to the airport and I know that was really good. Yeah, it's a great location.
Francoise von Trapp:Yeah, it is a great location. And so, with four technical tracks, how many presentations do we have at this point?
Amy Lujan:That would be 80.
Francoise von Trapp:80. Okay, and we have got four keynote talks.
Amy Lujan:Correct Four keynotes, four tracks.
Francoise von Trapp:So you mentioned earlier, when you were introducing yourself, that there's usually a general theme. What's this year's theme for DPC and how did the keynotes play into that?
Amy Lujan:So this year's keynotes we tried to focus on the advancements that are happening in packaging, basically advancements that had to happen to support the increasingly complex demands of applications like AI, data centers and high-performance computing, performance computing. Ai was kind of our guiding principle because it's been such a hot topic in the past year or two. As Jan will explain, that's also the focus of her panel. So AI was what we focused on as we began trying to reach out to companies and people to see who would end up fitting into our slate of speakers.
Francoise von Trapp:So who do you have speaking?
Amy Lujan:So on Tuesday we have the head of packaging at IBM Research, Dr Hemant Draganathan. He will be talking about silicon and organic substrate solutions for packaging AI, and then we will also have the glass perspective on glass-based substrates that same day from Samjin Kim, CTO of Epsolix.
Francoise von Trapp:Glass is such a huge topic right now, and also panelized glass, so I'll be interested to hear what he has to say.
Amy Lujan:Yeah, and we were happy to get kind of a substrate focus on that first day glass versus some silicon and organic to get some different perspectives on it. Thursday we'll change track a little bit and JB Baker of ScaleFlux is going to talk about data centers and talk about the role that packaging plays in meeting the future demands. And then our final keynote is going to be a bit more of an academic perspective from Jason Conrad at ASU. He'll be talking a little bit about how substrate solutions can support high-performance computing.
Francoise von Trapp:So I like how you're carrying the substrate topic through, because it really is critical right now, but also having the perspective of the end user of a data center. And then, yeah, there's a lot of exciting things happening in Arizona, especially in that space, with collaborations between academia and industry. So I'm really excited to hear what they're going to be talking about.
Amy Lujan:Yeah, I think it's a good lineup.
Francoise von Trapp:So now, jan, speaking of AI, you've got a very provocative title Preparing for the Coming AI Winter With a question mark, with a question mark, okay. So can you tell us what attendees can expect to learn from this panel?
Jan Vardaman:Well, I think everybody would agree that there's been a lot of hype about AI.
Jan Vardaman:So it's always a question of is there too much hype and have we created unrealistic expectations for this topic? But, that being said, you know, obviously, if you look at our OSAT businesses, companies that are gaining a lot of revenue in the OSAT space generally have been associated with the high performance computing in the AI revenue, because there's a tremendous amount of revenue being generated in the preparation of packages for this, and that includes both mainly from the data center, but increasingly from the edge space. So we're going to talk about that. But the other thing that we have to address is does the infrastructure support the continued growth for AI? And that includes the assembly, the availability of HBM, things like that. And then we're also going to talk about the energy use of these, basically in the data center, Because this is a really critical aspect of the growth of AI. I mean, if you don't have the power, the energy, it's going to be certainly hard to run a data center to do the kind of things Exactly Super important.
Jan Vardaman:And how is our industry addressing that energy crisis, if you will? Are we able to design with packages or chips that will use less power? I mean, it's crazy when you talk about the amount of power dissipation that these modules have, and so we want to talk about that. And then, of course, we also want to talk about some of the developments that have been in the news recently, with the revelation from DeepSeek that they were able to build a training model that took less time and, according to some people, less advanced hardware in order to develop an open source model. That begs the question do we need to continue to buy these modules and upgrade our existing capability, or can we use what we have? I mean, what is the refresh cycle with the modules in the hardware side? I mean because, after all, ai is a combination of hardware and software, and you can't have AI without either one of them. So the question is, are you more dependent upon the hardware? Are you more dependent on the software, and what is that bode for the future? So those are the kind of things that we want to address.
Jan Vardaman:We have a very exciting panel. We have our keynote speaker from IBM Research is going to join the panel. We have a representative from Intel, we have three OSATs represented in Stats, chippack, asc and Amcor, and I think that they'll help us to address some of the infrastructure and the challenges from the perspectives that they are involved in. And then, of course, they're out there dealing with the customers who are having this hardware built, and then whatever other questions come up from people, there's certainly a lot of emphasis on the growth in AI is driving the semiconductor industry revenue and driving some of our assembly and test revenue, and so those are the things I think we can discuss at our meeting.
Francoise von Trapp:Do you think we've finally gotten to the point where the value add of packaging can command a higher price point because it's going into AI modules? One of the things I remember from Semicon West last year was how you know wafers themselves have so much more value that we're not just dealing with the old school. Packaging just is a necessary cost adder. Do you think, with application spaces like HPC and AI driving things, that the manufacturing companies are more willing to invest in advanced packaging solutions?
Jan Vardaman:Well, it's advanced packaging that enables these solutions to become a reality. True, right. And so you have to invest in that advanced packaging if you're going to achieve any of the capabilities that the chips themselves promise. As it becomes more complex, it becomes more expensive, and it's not just the assembly side, it's the test side also. So don't forget about the test. And so we have to look at that in terms of it's not just are we willing to pay more for it, it's we have to pay more for it, it's we have to pay more for it. And then how do we change that packaging to become more energy efficient? How do we change that packaging? Is there a way to make it more cost effective? But after all, at the end of the day, if you're charging $40,000 a part, how concerned are you really about the cost of the package? Right?
Jan Vardaman:exactly You're more concerned about getting the package, having the infrastructure in place to manufacture those packages in a timely fashion to meet demand and to ship them out the door, and so really the cost, in a high performance situation, is not near the concern. It is for a consumer type product.
Francoise von Trapp:I'll be really interested to see what the commentary is around DeepSeek, because it's still so new in the news. You know this happened just a few weeks ago where it seemed to really have this huge impact right away on NVIDIA. But then the more you dig deeper the questions around how it is actually what it claims to be.
Jan Vardaman:Well, I think it's less important to look at whatever DeepSync did. The important, fundamental question is can you build these models off of less advanced hardware? I mean, how much are you dependent upon the software? It begs the question is what is the refresh cycle on this? Because, after all, what's going to drive more demand is not just more data centers, but perhaps a refresh and replacement of the existing modules in the data centers that we have, and that's something that we need to discuss, and I've not really gotten a satisfactory answer to that yet.
Jan Vardaman:I mean, certainly, from a reliability perspective, these things can last a long time, but you know how long before you do an upgrade. I mean we know what the requirements are for. You know an upgrade on their server CPUs, because that's what happens all the time. We know the cadence for that. What we don't know is what's the cadence for the replacement of the AI modules, and that's what we can discuss in this panel and hopefully get some really good answers and get really engaged in the audience to talk about this. But one of the things that I think we should talk about is, if we replace these with more energy efficient modules, will that help us with the power consumption for the data center, and I think those are the kind of things that we want to address and talk about and what kind of new ideas do people have out there? And hopefully we'll engage the audience with this distinguished group of panel members and we'll have a great discussion.
Francoise von Trapp:And that kind of plays into some of the topic of this year's GBC, right Tim.
Tim Olson :It sure does.
Tim Olson :So our GBC, of course, by its name it's kind of self-evident, but we focus on the business side of microelectronics packaging, and so we're really pleased to be part of IMAPS.
Tim Olson :We're a plenary session that's in the middle, so in the middle of the day of the conference we dedicate that morning to the Global Business Council and we invite speakers from the industry to talk about the theme, and this year's theme is scaling of artificial intelligence from the data center to the consumer, and so what we've lined up is some folks from the hyperscalers, the meta type application.
Tim Olson :We've got a Qualcomm gentleman to talk more about the kind of what you could call edge or the consumer side of using that AI. We have Marvell, senior executive, talking about the chips and the advanced packaging architectures around those chips that are used by the hyperscalers. Marvell is one of the companies at the heart of that, and then we have Jan is actually going to be speaker at GBC this year, and we have another analyst from Europe, joel. So we're going to have some analysts that know about the industry give their perspectives and we're going to have kind of the whole value chain of commercial companies talk about what they see in this idea of AI kind of taking over lots of things all the way from data centers to us as consumers.
Francoise von Trapp:We've got the panel on Tuesday night and then the GPC kind of picks up the story and runs with it from the business angle on Wednesday. So that should be really interesting combination.
Tim Olson :Yes, and we have a panel actually to wrap up our morning too, so all of our five speakers will be part of a panel as well at the end of GBC this year, which is a little bit different than previous.
Francoise von Trapp:Well, we'll be having Jillian McNichol, who is our new interconnectology blogger, and she is developing a passion for AI, and so we'll be looking to have her write something about both of these things as she hones her skills to become the empress of AI. We have a queen of 3D, and she's going to be the empress of AI.
Tim Olson :Wow, impressive.
Francoise von Trapp:Okay. So we've talked about keynotes, we've talked about GVC and the panel. We haven't really talked much about the technology tracks, other than the fact that there's four of them and there's going to be 80. I don't think we want to go through all of the different presentations. We also have the kicking things off on Monday with the professional development courses that people should be taking advantage of. Do you want to say anything about that, amy?
Amy Lujan:So professional development courses, we have 16 this year. So that means that, based on how the two-hour courses are set up, there's four running concurrently, which is pretty cool, because a couple of years ago I think there were only 12, and before then maybe fewer than that. So our PDCs this year it's a mix of familiar courses that I think we all see show up some really great basics that anyone can come to year over year, especially if they're new to the industry, along with some new blood as well, some new courses mixed in.
Francoise von Trapp:So will people be able to access these as part of IMAPS Academy after DPC? If they weren't able to attend, will they be added to the curriculum there?
Amy Lujan:To the best of my knowledge, I think that's the case for some of them. We would need to ask an IMAPS person about that specifically.
Francoise von Trapp:Okay, so that leaves my favorite part of the IMAPS device packaging conference, which is the networking and everybody getting to know each other and building the community context. So we've got a bunch of networking opportunities, beginning with a welcome reception right On the Monday night, that's correct, and it's a pretty casual reception to officially kick things off.
Francoise von Trapp:Yeah, and then Tuesday there is the, I think exhibitor reception, that's right, reception in the exhibit hall, followed by Jan's panel. Yeah, followed by Jan's panel, and the panel generally has some sort of food and beverage available to keep people from fainting.
Jan Vardaman:Yes, it does. We always make sure as a sponsor that that food and beverage is highest quality possible.
Francoise von Trapp:And you know it's a long day. So once you're doing the panel, you know people need a little bit of refreshment and it usually sparks some interesting conversation as well.
Tim Olson :I was going to say, if history repeats itself, the libations help people to let down some of their you know inhibitions, and there's some really exciting things that happen in that evening panel Jan.
Francoise von Trapp:We all laugh because we've all been there before, but it is a not to be missed event. And then, of course, on Wednesday there's the poster sessions with Happy Hour and this year, for the second time, I'm super excited to talk about the Backyard Olympics. We have sponsors for this event. The title sponsor is Liquidics, we have a drink sponsor, which is Amcor, and we have our photo sponsor, which is DECA. Thank you, tim.
Francoise von Trapp:There are still sponsorships available for the different games, but what we're trying to do here is kind of create an environment or atmosphere of play where people can do some team building. It tends to also have people letting down their inhibitions or the awkwardness of meeting people for the first time. It's really great to meet over a game. There's a lot of friendly competition that can go on here, and we've upgraded a little bit from last year where we're going to have a medal ceremony, so put your teams together. It's being organized a bit like the golf tournament and proceeds will benefit the IMAPS Microelectronics Foundation Scholarship Fund, as is the golf tournament, which is also happening on Thursday afternoon. I'm thinking of going out on the golf course because I've picked up golf in the last couple of years, so I'm looking forward to the golf tournament this year.
Tim Olson :Awesome.
Francoise von Trapp:The other thing actually I want to mention is that on Tuesday morning after the keynotes, please stick around before you go up to the coffee hour to help celebrate the 2025 3D Insights Award winners. We'll be presenting the awards during that session, so we hope people can stay around to help celebrate them. Anything else to add?
Tim Olson :Just that I'm looking forward to the new Backyard Olympics. Francois, that was a lot of fun before, and what you've done to it sounds like it'll be even more fun.
Francoise von Trapp:So we've had lots of help from the IMAPS committee. They pretty much ran with it on our behalf. So we do have the games there's cornhole On our behalf. So we do have the games. There's cornhole, there's golf chipping, there's pong.
Francoise von Trapp:Pull the hoop, axe throwing and a ring toss. Apparently, at the new venue there's a lot more space for it and it's going to be a really fun time. So when you sign up for your registration, you'll have the opportunity to also sign up a team for the backyard Olympics. You'll also have the opportunity to sign up a foursome for the golf. So make sure you check that out and if you've already registered and didn't add those fun things in, then go back and add them in, because really, in my opinion, the best part of the whole week.
Tim Olson :It is wonderful.
Francoise von Trapp:So where can people go to learn more?
Amy Lujan:The IMAPS website, imapsorg. There's a whole dedicated page about device packaging. 2025 has information about the dates where to stay, all kinds of information, so that you can hopefully come join us. It's my personal favorite conference. I go to a handful every year. This is what I look forward to the most. It's a great mix of industry, friends and there's always some new people that show up to start learning, but I find it to be the perfect size, so I'm really looking forward to seeing a lot of people in about one month here.
Francoise von Trapp:That's right, and I do think that, with ASU being so close here, there's going to be a lot of students, a lot of newcomers to the industry. If you are looking to fill career openings, here's an opportunity to meet some people. So, yeah, it's going to be a really great event. I'm super excited and I look forward to seeing you all there us too thanks, everybody all right, thank you for having us on thanks bye-bye.
Francoise von Trapp:There's lots more to come, so tune in next time to the 3d insights podcast. The 3d insights podcast is a production of 3d insights llc.